What can frum people do?

amother

Wine

Wed, Sep 02 2020, 1:45 pm

Muslims and JWs and Pentecostals do have specialty stores and websites . Check them out , many of the clothes are tznius and WAY cheaper than our clothes . My good friend bought what she uses for a Shabbos robe from a Muslim site for like $20 and it looks gorgeous.

We do as a society live pretty extravagantly. To see kollel families buying each of their kids $100 school shoes is a head scratcher. That being said, there are financial sacrifices we make to be frum. We make all kinds of sacrifices. We can’t take certain jobs, we can’t live in most places, we can’t eat many foods, we can’t wear a bikini on the beach in virtually any tourist destination. It’s a conscious choice to be frum. Nobody said it was going to be easy. The only guarantee is that it’s worth it, in this world and the next.

Frumme

Wed, Sep 02 2020, 2:03 pm

lamplighter wrote:

Just buying tights and stockings is a lot.

Skirts and dresses that cover the knees are hard to find. You can't just pick up $5 shirts in walmart.

Our modesty laws are not the same as the groups you mentioned. And I'll bet if we asked them they would say they spend more.

1) buy tights and stockings from places like Kohl's which often have deals and sales. Buy nude trouser socks at Walmart instead of stockings because they'll last longer and don't rip nearly as easily.

2) sites like Roolee, Harper & Bay, Slaydon & Rose are all Xian sites that cater to a more modest crowd. Is it cheap? Cheaper than many frum websites! Are there things we wouldn't wear like short sleeves? Yes but there are usually other options available on the same website that we would wear. It's not all or nothing.

It's completely doable to buy most of your clothes from non Frum places. Specialty items like tznius nursing night gowns or sheitels will most likely have to be splurged on or bought on sale at frum stores, which is fine and I add in that expense. But things like baby "layette" are such a scam (I'm not paying $24 for a baby bonnet).

It definitely takes more time and planning, but it's doable. Of course, if someone doesn't have the time to search these things out then yes it makes sense to buy from frum stores (you're paying extra to save your time). That being said. The amount of times I've gone into a frum store in Monsey and seen signage saying "we're not responsible for shatnez" (?!) or tried on a tznius (looking) dress that was sheer is just ridiculous. For their prices, it's especially frustrating.

Raisin

Wed, Sep 02 2020, 2:03 pm

zaq wrote:

Anyone who argues that frum people can live as cheaply as nonfrum is lying to himself. You probably couldn't do it even if you lived self-sufficiently on a farm with a lake (no mikvah fees), milked and shechted your own cattle or were vegan, made your own clothes and were learned enough to give your dc a complete Hebrew day school education while homeschooling. Unless you lived in the tropics, you would at the very least have to buy a lulav and etrog every year, even if you grew your own kosher hadassim and aravot.

yes but you save on the xmas tree and gifts

amother

Sapphire

Wed, Sep 02 2020, 2:19 pm

it's hard op but we can just do what we can do. We currenlty live in an area with lower cost of living. May you see Hashem's bounty in your life even with the added expenses...

I know baalei teshuva in the tristate area who after being frum for years decided they were done. I get the impression that a large part of was how expensive frum life is. They pulled all their kids out of their frum school and switched them to public school, sold their house in a frum area and bought in a non frum area known for it's public school system...

amother

Brown

Wed, Sep 02 2020, 2:39 pm

The things that eat my paycheck are tuition and kosher food. Not including mortagage because this is a universal expense. I do cut corners with kosher food and just buy meat in kosher stores. For other things with a hechsher (OU is fine for my family), I can buy cheaper at a place like Walmart or target or Costco. I very rarely shop at Jewish stores for clothing. Too expensive, not always amazing quality, and as I learned today, a hassle to return. I make my own wigs for way cheaper than I’ve seen some frum women pay for theirs. Tuition and kosher food are the only expenses that I feel like can’t be helped.

amother

Aubergine

Wed, Sep 02 2020, 2:49 pm

amother [ Mustard ] wrote:

I work with non Jewish people and they have very different ideas about what to spend money on. They are willing to shell out for fancy vacations in exotic places, new fancy (IMO) car leases, tons of new clothing/shoes (especially exercise clothing) organic food from Whole Foods, newest model phones.... most jewish people I know would not spend on these kinds of things unless they have a lot money.

That's just it. A drum family working VERY hard is just making it (paying tuition living in a modest home buying regular kosher food) at 200k while a secular family can go on exotic vacations have a nicely decorated home and buy fancy and organic foods. We are spending it on things that for us are necessity while they are spending it on what seems to us as luxuries.

amother

Wed, Sep 02 2020, 3:54 pm

amother [ Sapphire ] wrote:

yes. I have a good friend like this. She had a large family (as she was taught is ideal), they worked hard but they could not make ends meet. She became so resentful of the yeshiva system, she could not afford to buy in a frum community and she moved out.
She moved to a random affordable location (she may have had relatives there) put her kids in public school, and they aren't frum today.
It was just too much financial pressure and with no family support it can be crushing.

amother

Red

Wed, Sep 02 2020, 4:13 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

You raise a good point. Baalei teshuva often get the short end of the stick because they don't have family support. They have to make yom tov on their own every year, don't have parents who want to buy tefillin for the bar mitzvah boy, etc. Also, some baalei teshuva are insecure about standing out (depends on the community they have chosen) and so they only shop in frum stores to make sure they look right.

Advantages - in right wing circles, baalei teshuva may be among the only people with professional training and the tools for making a living. Having spent time outside the bubble, they can look at the system and see areas that don't make financial sense.

I wonder if the kiruv pros here can weigh in. Do you let newcomers know how much it costs to be religious according to your standards?

amother

Linen

Wed, Sep 02 2020, 4:25 pm

amother [ Red ] wrote:

So to summarize, Frum life is not doable without family support. And I don't agree that you need to spend time outside the bubble to see that this setup doesn't make financial sense. I'm in the bubble, and I can clearly see that marrying off kids at a young age, with little to no financial acuity and abilities, while encouraging them to start having large families immediately doesn't many any financial sense.

Cmon be nice

Wed, Sep 02 2020, 4:40 pm

baby12x wrote:

There are no secrets.
Work hard.
Stay in budget- even for yom tov!!
Save as early and as much as you can
Don't spend too much money on cars and houses (yes- you can find cheaper housing in the big frum cities- you just have to compromise on a lot).

Make a budget and STICK TO IT!

https://adimesaved.com/how-to-make-a-budget

A budget doesnt help when the non discretionary spending is just so much- tuition is what it is, cheaper housing in big cities? In Brooklyn, that means 750k instead of a million, etc

amother

Slateblue

Wed, Sep 02 2020, 4:43 pm

The best bet would be to move to a community with cheap housing and tuition vouchers. The food would still be more expensive but you can shop at large chain supermarkets and there are ways to eat well without so much chicken and meat.
Also this is not advice for you because you have a large family already and are no doubt very grateful for for each one of them, but I think people are limiting their family size in recent years in order not to have to scrimp and pinch so much.

Cmon be nice

Wed, Sep 02 2020, 5:02 pm

amother [ Slateblue ] wrote:

But dont move there without a parnasah!

amother

Crimson

Wed, Sep 02 2020, 5:22 pm

Parnasa and the struggles for it are a part of the nature of the world.

But as Jews we have the ability to rise above nature, by bringing Hashem in.

If we make everything into a financial calculation (how many kids to have, etc.) then we choose to be bound by the laws of nature.

If we bring Hashem into the picture, then we are able to live in a somewhat supernatural way.

That doesn't mean everything will be easy, but honestly doing our best to live the way Hashem wants us to live will yield better results than purely financial planning.

As many will attest, for example, being careful about giving tzedakah paradoxically ends up helping the bottom line.

amother

Mauve

Wed, Sep 02 2020, 5:24 pm

amother [ Red ] wrote:

actually, I think its ridiculous to think all ffbs go away for yom tov, have parents who pay for teffilin, for simchas etc.....

sorry, but as ppl here on this site said chikdren should not expect parents to pay for anything, well its true...and my parents/inlaws dont pay for things but do help my kollel sibilings while im struggling with higher tutions...im not upset bec...

meanwhile, op, I agree that frum life is expensive which I think is mostly because of tuition but I think a few posters here wrote good ideas...

buy food /clothing in walmart/target...etc. there are a lot of online sites with tznius clothes that are so much cheaper

but, yes, its just easier and nicer to buy from frum clothing stores, but you can avoid it...so too you dont need the most expensive sheitels that everyone has although its nicer to have them etc.

who even says ppl need a house? some large families I know who didnt have a lot of money lived in a 3 bedroom apt. another family I know has no car or one car and uses trains/buses to save money....there are a lot of ways to save $, but its hard and inconvenient to do so....

also, regarding uniforms, I get on sale in childrens place etc..in the summer they have sales...(my sons school wants us to buy from lands end which is so expensive and thats another story how im paying so much tution why is the school being so strict with uniform?)

anyway, buying coffee everyday or cutting out juices and only having water/milk...these little things add up...spending less on food is doable but not enjoyable at all...what about cheaper phone plans? saving on gas by not driving as much such as using it for essentials etc. and walking more etc...of course this depends on where you live.

my dad told me try to cut monthly bills as much as possible...the only thing I cant cut is rent/tuition...

but its possible to live more simply...but its very very hard and yes, even with all above im struggling because our combined salary seems high but im not getting any deductions/programs etc so im spending more on items others get $ for. yes, tuition is a struggle...and im hearing my coworkers complain about college when im paying tuition all these years.

amother

Cyan

Wed, Sep 02 2020, 5:37 pm

Quote:

You can choose to buy a smaller house, make a smaller down payment and a longer mortgage, repair rather than replace, make more modest simchas even if you think people will look down on you, buy less stuff and in general go for a simpler lifestyle. Many things that people say you "have to have" is pure frummy shtick. If you're brave enough to refuse to go along with it, others will follow suit and you'll be a heroine.

I totally live this way. I live in the simple house, dress simply and make modest simchas, and yes, I'm looked down by my family for being the shmattah. I work very hard at a professional job, but no it still doesn't stretch to cover all the tuitions I have to pay. I have to send my daughter away this year for HS and have to pay for boarding on top of tuition.

We went through 3 minivans in 4 years. I'm not thrilled at having to buy minivans. If you buy a cheap one they break down and need expensive repairs. If you buy a newish one you're paying a high monthly payment.

We bought a cheap house but it cost a fortune to heat in winter.

I keep going back and forth. If we do this, if we move there, if we cut out this. It never adds up.

I used to have a side job on top of my full time job that brought in a nice extra income that covered part of my tuition. But my hours at that side job were cut. We're in a deep, deep hole. Our credit cards are maxed out. I just can't work harder or get more jobs. Some days I come home and crash.

And don't think I don't have a good job. I love my job. I work for a great company, good working conditions, it's meaningful and valuable. I'm blessed to have this job. But hard as I work it's not going to bring in the income I need to cover all the tuition I have to pay.

amother

Mustard

Wed, Sep 02 2020, 5:40 pm

finprof wrote:

Amazon has lots of tznius dresses for $35ish. You can also shop at goodwill, there is no shame in that. We only eat meat on Shabbos and YT. OOT housing and schools are also cheaper.

I live out of town. Housing is not necessarily cheaper- just the houses are smaller and older. At least where I live. Yeah you can buy a house for $200,000 but it only has 3 bedrooms, no master bathroom and it has not be remodeled for the past 30 years.

Also, regarding school tuition, it is not necessarily cheaper either. From what I understand there is a set rate for in-town school tuition for each kid. ($3000 $5000? I am not sure if this varies per school/city etc). Out of town tuition, if you do not get a scholarship is waaaaaaayyyy more. More like $8000 or 10,000.

What is different is the standard of what is "normal". I posted about this earlier in the thread. That is what makes the difference in cost of living.