What can frum people do?

amother

Taupe

Fri, Sep 04 2020, 12:09 pm

Reality wrote:

I do think for most frum people, tuition and housing are what makes it impossible to stay in budget.

But Americans in general have a lot of credit card debt even when they make a good income.

Have you ever listened to Dave Ramsey's show? I know those are the extreme cases but this is how everyday Americans live their lives. They make a decent income but they spend way too much money on their cars, trucks, boats, electronic devices etc... And they don't prioritize saving. They just swipe the plastic.

Why do people always argue that other people are engaging in poor behavior or whatever.

The original post was discussing that expenses for a Frum family are higher. But certain expenses are lifestyle decisions which many Frum imamothers seem to want to justify as necessary as some one or another.

Many secular people live within their means. Why focus on secular people who have made poor economic choices as somehow justifying poor economic choices by Frum people.

This isn't just true of economic threads but so often whenever questionable behavior is brought up, there will be people who say yes but other people who aren't Frum are also behaving poorly. Makes no sense because many non-from people are NOT behaving poorly so why not focus on those who are.

However realistically if there are two families - one Frum and the other secular - it will be easier for the secular family to live within their means because a Frum family has already made an economic decision that more of their income must be spent to sustain a Frum lifestyle.

However, a Frum lifestyle doesn't require that people have many of the luxury discretionary expenses that some people argue are necessities.

amother

Forestgreen

Fri, Sep 04 2020, 12:31 pm

It's pretty simple when you put aside the little extras. Leaving out strollers or cleaning ladies etc
Generally more kids
Tuition (add in busing costs if you live oot, or added wear and tear on car if you carpool)
Housing in more expensive locales due to shul etc proximity need
Higher taxes if you live in a city usually (and most frum pple do as proximity requirements)
Added YT costs (not necessarily food only, though that, too)
Harder to find inexpensive women's clothing without needing alterations or online shopping, and also more conservative men's clothing is generally more expensive (even if you only have a couple outfits, I am not talking big wardrobes)
Kosher food often costs more. You can eat chicken 1x a week and save meat for YT. Still, you aren't going to starve your family.
These are the nonnegotiables that generally cost more for frum pple. These are pretty basic.
But, looking back on even recent Jewish history we live life on a much higher scale. There are videos on youtube of recordings from shtetls in Poland I would guess between the two wars and OMG. The poverty. Actually seeing it is way different than reading about it. It is devastating to see. No wonder Jews were flocking to America when they could, satisfied to live in terrible tenements which were still a step up for many.

amother

Aubergine

Fri, Sep 04 2020, 12:41 pm

[quote="amother [ Wine ]"]Yes, but Jewish families with zero kids at home or one or two kids also having cleaning help.[/qulote]

Dunno where you're living but I don't see that. The ones with cleaning help and one kid I assume come from wealthy families. Otherwise I am so happy that our communities promote getting cleaning help so that we can better manage with large families.

Jews did very well in America and jewish households on average make more than any other nationality (except possibly indian). The overall community standard is higher because we have more money. Unfortunately that does not extend to all of us and creates alot of pressure.

amother

Wine

Fri, Sep 04 2020, 12:45 pm

[quote="amother [ Aubergine ]"]

amother [ Wine ] wrote:

Yes, but Jewish families with zero kids at home or one or two kids also having cleaning help.[/qulote]

Dunno where you're living but I don't see that. The ones with cleaning help and one kid I assume come from wealthy families. Otherwise I am so happy that our communities promote getting cleaning help so that we can better manage with large families.

Jews did very well in America and jewish households on average make more than any other nationality (except possibly indian). The overall community standard is higher because we have more money. Unfortunately that does not extend to all of us and creates alot of pressure.

I live in Lakewood.

Reality

Fri, Sep 04 2020, 1:13 pm

amother [ Taupe ] wrote:

I'm not comparing. My point is the frum community doesn't exist in a bubble. Even if we think we do! We don't realize how aculterated we are! We have absorbed the spending values of Americans! To buy, buy, buy.

Why all the old jokes about cold litvaks? On time yekkies? Fancy Hungarians.The Jews that lived in those countries absorbed the values and culture of the country they lived in.

naturalmom5

Fri, Sep 04 2020, 2:33 pm

amother [ Wine ] wrote:

My husband and I were just speaking last night about how virtually all frum people have cleaning help when in most non jewish communities it’s not heard of. I’m not speaking of women with 10 kids who work full time. Newlyweds working part time, mother with 2 kids in a basement , physically able empty nesters who only have the two adults to clean after . We cannot complain about finances when we are unable to do basic housework Which seems common. I understand having someone come once a week to do deep cleaning but that’s still a luxury. Having someone come 6 hours a week minimum seems typical ....that’s around $5000 a year. Is that not a luxury, to have someone else fold our laundry and wash our dishes ? Why are non jews able to mop their floors and many of us are not...

I never had cleaning help in 30 years of marriage, even after 3 major surgeries

amother

Taupe

Fri, Sep 04 2020, 2:47 pm

Reality wrote:

But that is still rationalizing by saying that Frum Jews are just adopting the habits of secular people in the culture.

My point is that there are many secular people who do live within their means so why justify behavior by shrugging and saying other people are just as bad. Most of us wouldn't accept that kind of shrugged explanation from our children.

I acknowledge that there are various aspects of Frum life which are non-discretionary and therefore those expenses eat up a significant percentage of one's budget.

However, there are lifestyle choices which some imamothers state are necessary rather than discretionary. This is fine if you are using your discretionary income to fund them but not if you are funding your lifestyle with credit cards and debts. To say that some secular people fund their *extravagant* lifestyles with credit cards and debt isn't a defense.

There are always these "yes but" rationalizations for why spending on non-essentials is somehow essential. There are many imamothers who manage to live within their budget by finding more frugal ways to feed and clothe themselves - for example.

It is difficult to live within a restricted budget - I am not disputing that at all. Cleaning help is wonderful. Lovely clothing for yourself and family is such a pleasure. The ability to feed one's family food without having to eke out every possible savings is much easier and sometimes I am still surprised when I realize that what I think of as middle class staple food like yogurt is a luxury for some households.

But if that is the hand one is dealt, then one learns to be creative with money and time to make it more palatable or one has to deal with the really awful dreadful feelings of anxiety when one doesn't have enough money to support one's lifestyle. I have been up and down financially and I would rather cut a few economic corners than have to be up in the middle of the night panicked about paying rent/mortgage.

naturalmom5

Fri, Sep 04 2020, 2:57 pm

Reality wrote:

I never meant to create such a hullabaloo!

Are we talking about an equal footing friendship or are we talking a mitzva? Yes it's a mitzva to invite a struggling family. Is that your mindset when you invite a friend? No. It's we want to enjoy good company. I don't consider inviting my friends over as doing the mitzva of hachnachas orchim.

Life is not tit for tat. I never keep track of whose turn it is to invite who. I really don't care. I invite people for meals way more then I am invited out.

I was talking about the mindset some people have of saving money off of other people's backs. I guess other people on this thread are lucky enough not to have met those kinds of people.

I have been told to my face "why should I buy this if I can borrow it from you?". Uh no. I like to be generous but it doesn't mean you can take advantage of me.

Reality , Im sorry your life experience has made you so bitter...
Have a Good Shabbos Very Happy

amother

Mustard

Fri, Sep 04 2020, 3:03 pm

amother [ Taupe ] wrote:

So many good points here! I really relate to the yogurt example. I grew up just like that. No yogurt ever! It was just too expensive. I don't think most people who are financially struggling nowadays would think that cutting out something like yogurt would be appropriate or helpful. Especially considering the comments on this thread that tuition is the main culprit.

amother

Taupe

Fri, Sep 04 2020, 3:13 pm

amother [ Mustard ] wrote:

I had my eyes opened when I read an article on what I call Starbucks economics.

Most people (myself included back then) don't concentrate on the small expenses that are frequent but focus on major expenses.

I had a major Starbucks habit and then I totaled what I was spending in a year with my daily habit and said to myself - Do I really want to spend $1500 a year on coffee instead of finding an alternative. The answer was of course no because I saw what the Starbucks was actually costing me annually instead of the relatively small amount I didn't think about as a daily expense.

Not to mention that I then multiplied my Starbucks habit by a decade and realized I didn't want to spend $15,000 in a decade on Starbucks.

I am using Starbucks as my personal example but I think every budget has these kinds of small expenditures which are eye opening if added up.

I am not saying that one should live a miserable existence in which nothing non-essential is bought. Only pointing out that many budgets contain items which one can think about in terms of how much value they actually have for you and then proceed. Coffee with a friend is a one thing but getting the Starbucks every morning (and sometimes twice a day) was different and easily replaced with something more budget friendly. For home, Nespresso is just as delicious as Starbucks cappuccino and lattes and coffee at work also can have last costly alternatives.

And of course, my Starbucks as stated was personal - what is everyone else's Starbucks "aha moment"?

Mommyg8

Fri, Sep 04 2020, 4:43 pm

amother [ Taupe ] wrote:

So I'm going to say this straight out - the reason I splurge on the things like cleaning help, nicer food and clothing, is simple - I have to make enough money to pay for tuitions, multiple children and housing - I might as well add on a few more dollars on luxuries.

IME, the biggest expenses of frum living are not food and clothing, it's housing, tuition and yomim Tovim. Even if you whittle down your food and clothing to the bare bone basics, you still need to make more more than the AVERAGE annual salary for non frum people.

Many years ago I had dreams of living simply. I thought it was possible for us to live on a middle class income if we would live very, very frugally. I since found out that it just wasn't. There is no way to live frum - frugally on a small salary, and keep up with the costs of frum living. So I traded my dreams of living on homemade bread, hand me down clothes, and a better quality of life for a life that my husband and I both feel like hamsters on the treadmill.

I'll say it frankly - if I'm shelling out $3,000 a month (or more) in tuition, another $3000 (let's say) in housing costs, I just don't see the terrible aveirah in buying a yogurt every now and then. Worst case scenario, if I buy 20 yogurts a week, it's $80 a month. And it's nutritious. And even high end things like Bugaboos and expensive shaitels - it's something you buy ONCE and have for a while. And which gets pretty much swallowed up in the monthly $10,000+ budget. So I'm not apologizing for it at all.

amother

Mustard

Fri, Sep 04 2020, 4:53 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

I don't think you need to apologize but if someone is in this financial situation I do not think they have the right to ketch "We are barely making it."