Children make me want to move out!!

amother

Sat, Sep 05 2020, 5:07 pm

This is a long vent. I'm just suffering from the after-effects of a very challenging Shabbat. Our children (kindergarten and primary school age) don't respect me or dh and don't listen and they nearly always ruin Shabbat for us, because there's no electronic distraction.
They interrupt kiddush every single time with talking, squabbling or nonsense.
Refuse to wear kippot.
Spill the grape juice.
Refuse to do netilat yadayim.
Refuse to eat a piece of challah.
Don't stay at the table for more than a few minutes, ever. Don't sing zmirot and start screeching if we try to.
During Shabbat day, they bring in friends, play wildly and wreck the house. One ds's room is now covered in loads of clothes and blankets that he has ripped out of the cupboard. Together they flooded the bathroom with water on the floor today, despite having been told many times not to do that. The boys and their friends climbed onto the roof of the garden shed today and broke it by jumping on it. When I yelled at them and told them to get down from the roof immediately, one ds yelled at me, in front of his friends, that we are horrible parents and chutzpanim. I couldn't get to him because the roof doesn't carry me and I'm no great climber anyway.
To show off in front of his friends, the same ds climbed into the public trash container on our street. I have told him many times not to do that, also this Shabbat, but of course he had to do it again. When he came back in, grimy and smelling of trash, I told him to wash hands and change clothes immediately. He started yelling at me and stuck out his tongue, before reluctantly washing and changing.
Dd is a lot less aggressive but she went off with some other girl, we didn't know exactly where she was, and came home at 10:30 pm on motzai Shabbat. She had told us she was going to a friend's house, but she's 8 and knows she should come home when it gets dark. That would have been around 07:30 pm.

We are just a week after the summer holidays where we went through great efforts to give our children an interesting day trip every second day, to the sea side, different parks, zoo, picnics, pizza outing and what not.
They get food, sweets, clothes, toys - it's not like they are deprived or neglected. They go to good schools and the youngest, kindergarten. They can visit friends and bring them home. We sit with them at bedtime and read them stories. They do not get abused physically or s@sually, as far as I know. Dh and I are rather weak disciplinarians and generally on the soft side, maybe too soft.
The only other fault I can think of is that maybe we don't spend as much time with them as we should.

But honestly, after days like today I don't want to spend time with these little monsters. I don't want to be in the same room with them. I'm half expecting an attack when they come in. I was at the brink of tears on motzaei Shabbat and told dh that I want to rent a room somewhere else to have some peace. Of course that's not realistic. Then I tried to be in the bedroom but the children came after me. If I lock the door, they bang on it with items. It's badly scratched already. So I locked myself in the car across the road. The car is by the way dented as well because a few days ago our youngest ds threw a rock on it. I feel persecuted by my own children!

What makes children hate and resent their parents so much? Two of our dc's have said on various occasions that they want to shoot/kill us! They regularly shout at us that we are horrible parents. They often threaten ro break things uf they don't get what they want! But at school and in kindergarten they behave well and get kind of glowing reports!
What have we done to deserve that?!

We've had counseling for 2 years with different social workers but it never really helped. They just told us to structure the day better and set boundaries. It didn't work and didn't make any difference.
I've never felt this before but today I really felt a wave of hatred towards our children. And I really ask myself why I have to share a house with such antisocial beings. If a husband would behave like that, one could call the police and get a distancing order and file for divorce. But you can't do that with young children, obviously. They are free to terrorize me. What will be if they get older? Maybe I'll really move out one day.

amother

Denim

Sat, Sep 05 2020, 6:06 pm

Look, the way I see it is this:

Either there is a problem with you and your husband - something along the lines of you're not communicating well with each other, and are sending inconsistent messages, or you have personality issues. If this is the problem, then you and DH need therapy, coaching on how to parent, or maybe evaluation and medication.

Or, there's an organic issue with these kids - ADHD, sensory issues, ASD, I don't know what. Solution: Take your kids to developmental psychologists and get them evaluated.

Or, you, your husband, and your kids are all fine but there is a problem with the relationship between the parents (you and your DH) and the children. Solution: family therapy, coaching for you and DH on how to be better parents.

I apologize for the bluntness. I think you know that what you're describing is dysfunctional, especially given that your children are young, not teenagers. Please be honest with yourselves and figure out which of the scenarios I listed is the case for you, and seek help accordingly.

The longer you wait, the harder this will be to fix. With primary school kids you can still fix things but your time is running out.

amother

Denim

Sat, Sep 05 2020, 6:19 pm

A few other notes, from rereading your post:

You say you and your DH are too soft - yeah, it sounds like it. And if electronics are the only thing that gets your kids to behave, they may need to be weaned off the electronics entirely.

Don't get upset when your kids say they want to kill your or shoot you, or that you're horrible. It's pretty normal. Your job is to ignore it and not take it personally. Mazal tov! You get the "my kid hates me" parenting badge!

Antisocial human beings - what you're describing is violent and destructive behavior. Your kids seem social enough, even if their friends aren't encouraging good behavior.

Possibly most importantly: Social workers are not therapists or parenting counselors/ coaches. Please find someone who is trained to provide parenting guidance.

Chutzpanim - this means you're probably Israeli, correct?

Now assumptions based on that:

Glowing reports from schools - this means nothing, since much of what you described is pretty normal in many areas of Israel, and not really seen to be an issue. Another possibility, if your schools do consider this to be a problem: Your children are spending too much time in school, so they act out at home.

modernfrum

Sat, Sep 05 2020, 7:54 pm

I think since you and your husband are too soft with the kids that they taking advantage of this a lot, if you don't put into structure and rules now later on its going to be much harder.
At the begining of rules will be difficult for you and the kids as takes time to settle and be firm don't give up.
My kids used to interupt a lot during kidush and not singing at the table its because they are kids and need to be told that kidush is important need to be quiet or they go to their room for a good 10 minutes once calmed can join again and it worked for us, we dont force our kids to sing or bentch loudly as otherwise it gets too much for them and less arguing going on as long they sit at the table . Make sure your kids let you know where they are on shabbos and they come home at specific time (for her age should not be out later than 6.30 pm) as otherwise you should not let them out again the following shabbos.
If you show/explain consequenses of whats happening if they don"t listen to you they will reconsider in the future and show bit more respect (try not to give too many chances as otherwise they will play your system) I know is difficult for you to be v strict as can tell you love your kids that you want the best for them but for them to walk over you its not acceptable and you have to show whos the parents , once you show whos in charge then can be loving parents at the same time they will understand and love you. At parents evening few teachers told me my kids are great in school and soft spoken I was surprised as at home its totally different , they said its a good thing that in school they are good as you don't want the problem in school ! That showed me hope that needed more structural at home . Before you give your kids rule discuss with your husband on what both agree on and whats are the consequences as has to be on the same page otherwise it confuse the kids . Once you decided sit all your kids together on the couch for a chat and try review every few weeks .
Wish you lots of strenght and try treat yourself a good self care like a good drink in a coffee shop with a friend or a massage to recharge .

amother

Fuchsia

Sat, Sep 05 2020, 9:03 pm

A point that stood out to me is were you wrote "they are free to terrorize me". They are NOT free to terrorize you. YOU are the parents and the ones in charge. They are not the bosses. It sounds like they need a lot more boundaries set up.

I'm saying this as a parent who was very soft to my own children when they were young. When my kids were about 7 and under they were out of control (not as much as your children by the sound of things, but pretty bad).The best advice I got (and I'm guessing some on here will disagree but I will say it anyways) was to literally hit them when they got out of control (as a last resort obv but still a resort as oppose to just letting them do whatever they wanted). They needed to know that there was someone in charge - they where begging for that with their behavior. Kids feel secure when they know there is someone powerful who can protect them.

It was one of the hardest things I had to do, but my husband and I were very strict/firm for a few months - and although they didn't turn into angels, their behavior became so much more manageable (today they act like normal teenagers do bh, the other day we were sitting around and laughing about all the crazy things they did when they were younger). As far as hitting them - we did a few times (like if we would punish them by taking them to their room and they would start hitting one of us, but it only happened a few times, they learned we meant business and stopped themselves before going that far. I'm very against hitting which is why I needed to be told it was ok and I should use it in my situation (under professional guidance - so no one take it as something thats normally ok to do) I have not used force on them in yrs bh it was just for a small amount of time initially to get things back under control)

To go back to your examples what we would have done then -

Interrupt doing Kiddush - more then one warning and they need to leave the table (they don't listen they physically get removed)

Refusing to wear a kippot - honestly at this point I'd ignore that (Its important, but isn't effecting anyone else, plus I don't like turing religious things into power struggles...) however, I would look out for when they are wearing it and praise them when they do. Same with challah and netilat yadayim.

Spill the grape juice - have them clean it up

Refusing to sit at the table - I would allow them to play quietly if they can't sit. They can't dictate whether you can sing or not. If they make noise and don't allow you to sing, one of you should remove him from the room and the other should continue, or remove him (holding him of you need to) come back in five minutes and start singing again. He does it again remove him again.... (It may take 20xs the first time, but stay firm. Eventually he will get annoyed about being taken away from what he was doing and putting up with the singing will be worth not having to be taken out)

Recking the house - ds must clean it. He should not be allowed to do anything else till it's cleaned up.

Regarding how he acted with his friends - warn him if that ever happens again his friends will have to go home and the next week they won't be allowed to come. Be specific with exactly what behaviors you don't allow.

Regarding your daughter - make sure she has a watch and understands when she has to go home. Tell her if she's not home on time next time, no friends next week.

Dc who throw a rock should "pay" to fix the damage by doing some chores for you. Same if they threaten to break something. If it's something that really can't be broken, remove it. Otherwise let them know there will have to pay for it/fix it/ clean it and etc...

In general with everything try to make the consequences fit the action (mess - clean it, break something - fix it or pay for it and so forth)

Talking not nice to you - if possible to ignore it (ex pretend you didn't hear it) if that's not possible, tell him or her to try repeating it using different words. The same with actions - if say they slam the door in your face, they need to go back and 'redo' it better.

I know your probably thinking those things will never work - ex if you send ds away from the table he will just go back, if I tell him to clean up he just wont... You need to let him understand that it's not a choice when you say something. He doesn't stay away one of you literally carries him out and sits holding him in another room in a tight hug. He keeps hitting or tries to bite, them hit him (this is a last resort obviously) same for the not cleaning his room - do not let him go out of his room till it's cleaned up.

It will be VERY hard at first. They will test you over and over.... You need to be on the same page as your husband and be very firm. If they see you give in sometimes this won't work - they will keep trying bec they know sometimes they can get away with it. You MUST stick to your consequences ever single time (even if it's very hard for you - ex keeping them home on shabbos without friends will probably be hard on you). Eventually they'll see you are serious and will stop testing it.

At the same time also keep trying to look out for the positive in them and keep complimenting even the small things. You can even make a chart/goal for certain things.

After a few months if it works, you can slowly let you guard down slightly (not to much, they still need to have boundaries and feel safe) but you don't have to be as rigid every time.

It's best not to wait on this - alot of the above won't work with older kids. You sound like great parents btw and like your really trying. It can hard to be firm on kids, but keep in mind they really do want/need it.

Good luck!!

amother

Lavender

Sat, Sep 05 2020, 9:59 pm

OP, what a horrible day! You sound kinda like us when were were younger. We very, very much were so concerned about being good parents, we probably overdid it. Too lenient. To many trips, toys, candy, etc. Dare I say, our kids were/are spoiled. We are trying to correct our mistakes but it's not easy.

But, I've experienced all of those things you have but perhaps not all in one day. When our kids were younger, we never had a calm Shabbos dinner. Everyone had to be talking all at once. Someone would make faces towards their siblings when the blessings were being said. Someone would pick a fight or just would go too far and get sent to their room. It was chaos. Then, we decided that after kiddush and challah, we would allow whatever kid needed to, to leave the table if they were antsy or bored. They could play in the living room which is quite open and flows into our dining room. So, even though they weren't sitting at the table, they could still see and hear us and vice versa. Or they could read an interesting book.

3 out of 5 mornings this week my youngest daughter yelled at me she hated me, I'm the worse mother ever. She also just wasn't being very nice at all. Complaining and kvetching and crying about her clothes, her hair, pretty much everything. (She's 11). She was having rough mornings. I do my very, very best not to react. It's an anxiety reaction and moodiness on the brink of full fledged puberty.

Chuzpadik talk gets consequences and disrespectful behavior gets consequences. Leaving the house and not returning home until motzei Shabbos warrants a discussion and clear review of expectations.

I think your kids would benefit from more structure. Age appropriate chores. Consequences for over the line behavior and behavior that is simply dangerous. You can't control everything they do though. Some things can slide. And they already know how to behave in public at school because you said they generally get good reports. And they know what they can get away with at home and it sounds like quite a lot.

I suspect they will be happier when there is more structure.

amother

Smokey

Sat, Sep 05 2020, 10:48 pm

Op I hate to say it but the problem is definitely you and your husband. You wrote a bunch of insane situations but have not explained what youve done about any of it!
For example why is your daughter going to a friend without asking you? Why dont you know what friend she was going to? Why was she not punished for coming home so late?
My children are never allowed to go to a friends house without permission and then I give a time the child needs to be home and if child is late she cannot go out again.
What did you do to your son when he got off the shed? My son wouldve been indoors for the rest of the day?
Your son banged on your door with items, was he punished? I would take him gently to his room and have him stay there.
Based on what you wrote and I could be wrong your children seem to be suffering in some way and that is why they are acting up. Perhaps you arent around for them much?
How is your floor flooded? Where were you and husband when this happened?
None of this would ever happen in my house and not because my children are angels but because I would never allow it and they know it.
You may have gotten good counseling advice but it wasnt effective possibly because you didnt carry it out. You certainly need some good guidance.

flowerpower

Sat, Sep 05 2020, 11:18 pm

First of all- hugs! Sounds like you’re having it hard. For starters-

1- you are their parent. Not their friend. Be firm with them and keep your word! If they disrespect it then they need a consequence. My dd is around your dd age and she never leaves the house on her own. Be firm. Stick to your word! Don’t be afraid of them. No empty threats.

2- dh and you must be on the same page when it comes to discipline.

3- start with putting your foot down when it comes to disrespect. That is a no no. Know how to talk to them when they disrespect
You. For example - Esty says “I waaaaant my ipad nowwww” Show her gently how the correct way of asking is. Say it once and ignore until she asks nicely

4- limit electronics. For your sake and theirs

5- unspoil them a bit. Sounds like they get too much. Rather spend more quality time with each kid individually.

6- Parenting is not easy. Trust me. Its a work of progress. But definitely don’t be afraid of your kids. One day you’ll see they’ll see you’re serious and start listening

7- work on making your days more structured. Kids realllly crave it. For example- shabbos- give each kid a job- preparing the table, preparing the food... help them. They’ll love it and feel confident that they’re doing something. The little kids need to sit at the table until first course is over. Then they can go play

Good luck

camp123

Sun, Sep 06 2020, 12:18 am

Obviously you need some professional help. Don't give up looking until you find someone.
I think the way to solve this is different than if you hadn't got to this point in the first place.
The ideas are above about setting rules and having consequences for everything is where you want to get. But if you try and enforce everything in one go it will be too much for your kids who are used to bring in charge.
Imo sit your kids down and set three or four ground rules. Tell them you love them and you are not compromising on these rules. If someone doesn't do what you say. You take away electronics for a certain amount of time. Or you don't allow friends in your house.
I would ignore the no kippot, not washing etc is clearly not a priority here and will come later. You need to make sure to ask of them at little as possible so you can enforce what you ask.
I would make not listening to you a red line. If your son is doing something you don't like and you tell him to stop and he doesn't listen. Say I'm counting to five. If by five you have not done what I have asked you take away the electronic device. Stay calm, and don't get angry or shout. They are used to you losing control. Be firm, but insistant and don't back done or given in even if he complies after five. Your most important job is to get them to listen to you. But, its important at the beginning not to ask to much from him. So ignore a lot. He spills Grape juice say, I guess it w an accident and ignore. Choose your battles bc trying to enforce too much to quickly will create a battle ground. Things won't change overnight. Don't ask him to put his Kippa on, clean up. But do ask him to come down from Garbage cans, stop doing dangerous things. Let you know when they'll be home.
Tell them you won't tolerate disrespectful speech and punish for it. Be uncompromising on this. One warning to say what they want to say respectively and if they don't there's a consequence. Sometimes tell them how to rephrase what they want to say nicely.
You need to teach them how to be nice kids.. It
Takes time and patience. They can't learn it by themselves.

Last edited by camp123 on Sun, Sep 06 2020, 1:02 am; edited 1 time in total