You realized you were on the wrong side in a conflict

amother

Sun, Sep 06 2020, 11:10 am

Did you ever got involved or take sides in a conflict between two people or groups when you were convinced you were standing up for the right side, only to realize later on in time that you were either actually on the wrong side or that your side was not innocent either?

Or were you personally ever in a fight with someone and convinced they were so wrong only to realize years later that you really were the one who was wrong or at least wrong to a great degree?

What happened? Why did you at first side with the wrong side and what caused you to realize who was right?

Please limit this thread to interpersonal conflicts. No ideological haskafa or political debates please.

ChanieMommy

Sun, Sep 06 2020, 11:17 am

Yes, both constellations happened a few times to me. It even happened once that I let myself be pressured into doing something I considered immoral at that moment.

I am a good listener, but I fail to complete the picture with what the other side would have to say. So I tend to support the person who is talking to me unconditionally...

I think it is OK to do so, as long as you don't get involved with the other side. It is OK that each side have their supporters.

So I learned at least not to get used as a tool against the other side.

Hard experience in life has taught me that there is an other side of the story. So I learned to take things with a grain of salt, but I still tend to be sucker...

Also it happened a few times to me that the "wrong side of the conflict" turned against me later...

So I had to learn on my expense to recognise a few red flags:
- if someone doesn't get along with anyone, chances are they won't get along on the long run with you
- pity is no basis for a healthy relationship
- if someone tells you their family interned them in a psychiatric facility against their will, chances are the family had good reasons to do so...

lilies

Sun, Sep 06 2020, 11:59 am

Nothing comes to mind. I've been witness to another party's conflict and only later saw the situation objectively.

I'm curious what it is that you've experienced that made you start this thread? It might give me hope for those who've seriously wronged people might one day see the truth.

amother

Magenta

Sun, Sep 06 2020, 12:14 pm

ChanieMommy wrote:

I'm really like this. Thought it was only me.

ora_43

Sun, Sep 06 2020, 12:15 pm

So this wasn't me, but I used to work (way back in the day) for a place that provided home help to elderly/ill people.

There was this one older woman who was estranged from her family. I never worked with her, but the boss at the agency used to talk about her situation. The woman had told boss-lady all about how mean her children were, and boss-lady felt so so bad for her and couldn't understand how children could be so cruel to their own mother.

And then one day, the poor, sweet old lady with the mean, cruel children tried to burn her house down with the home health aide inside Surprised

.

Yeah. Turns out she was less a nebbuch with cruel ungrateful children, than deeply mentally ill to the point of homicidal.

amother

Chocolate

Sun, Sep 06 2020, 12:18 pm

curious if you ever apologized to the other party? my dh was involved in a beis din case. The dayan basically said it was straight forward that the other side owed my husband money. but local rabbanim before that told my dh he was being completely unreasonable. even after the psak came out they never apologized. My dh is still upset at the local rabbis over it and it has really negatively affected my family in terms of ruchnius. I wish those rabbis would apologize to us Sad

amother

Sun, Sep 06 2020, 12:20 pm

lilies wrote:

The imamother thread about giving marriage advice for serious issues on imamother motivated me to start this thread.

silverlining3

Sun, Sep 06 2020, 12:23 pm

I did.
I sided with 1 friend when I only heard her side. The irony was, that other friend sort of cut contact with me, (by now we can chat here n there) and eventually reconnected with the friend I sided with.

Turns out, both went through tough times then. I don't think either we're or meant bad.

I learnt the hard way never to get involved as a 3rd party. Just be a listening ear and try to sympathize.

GoodEnough

Sun, Sep 06 2020, 12:56 pm

I probably have gotten involved in family conflicts, that I shouldn't have when I was younger. It's hard when you want to help, and you think you're helping, but I think most times one just ends up making things worse.

Nowadays, I try really hard to stay out. I'm happy to listen and offer empathy. I refuse to get involved or take sides. It's none of my business.

amother

Turquoise

Sun, Sep 06 2020, 1:20 pm

imanonymous wrote:

I love this post. This should be a reminder to anyone who is in the position of listening (which is all of us at some point!)

- Don't trust a narrative just because you heard it from one person. There are always two sides of a story. Validate emotions, but at least leave room for doubt. (Not least because of hilchos lashon hara.)

- If you later hear the story from a different party, recognize that their account may be just as valid as the first person's.

- Allow yourself to change your mind! It's not a sign of weakness.

I hear you. But imagine a woman who has been abused emotionally for years but has no proof. With her last bits of strength she finally confides in you. If you won't believe her, who knows if she'll ever reach out again. And if you do believe her, she does need actually help so badly, not just a listening ear.

On the flip side, imagine a narcissist starts with the discard process. As part of it, he secretly smears his wife to anyone who's close with her by telling them lies like "I don't know what happened to my wife, lately she lost her mind" or "lately she has become abusive and I suffer terribly". He hints that you're the only one who can save him etc.

amother

Turquoise

Sun, Sep 06 2020, 1:29 pm

GoodEnough wrote:

Nice, but what if an abused woman and her children don't have even 1 dollar to her name and suffers every hour.

Would you still refuse to get involved? Once you help her you took sides because her husband is now against you..

Or on the flip side, if a man says help me (he's desperate and in a terrible rush) transfer the legal ownership of my home to a trust that's on your name because my wife stole all my money so I at least stay with the house.. and non of it is really true but you're totally unaware.

leah233

Sun, Sep 06 2020, 1:42 pm

amother [ Turquoise ] wrote:

Not comparable examples.

If a women is claiming to be abused without a dollar to her name and I give her money I'm not guilty of taking sides. That does not inherently hurts the husband.

If a man (or women) asks me to transfer a house to a trust on my name that does inherently hurts the wife (or husband) so I would need more evidence.

ora_43

Sun, Sep 06 2020, 1:47 pm

I think it's pretty simple with allegations of abuse, too.

You give support to the person who says they are being abused. Money, help moving, emotional support - whatever they need.

You do not do anything that would hurt the other partner. No badmouthing them to others, or helping the partner claiming abuse hide assets (as in above example).

I actually did help someone who turned out to be, let's say, what most people would armchair-diagnose as a narcissist. Definitely some sort of disorder. But... so what? It's not like if people didn't bring food for her and her kids, she would have gone back to her husband. (And if she had, that would hardly have been doing him a favor...).

You're not going to be part of the problem by helping someone. People don't leave healthy relationships just because someone paid for their groceries or helped them fix a faulty electric outlet.

eta - oops, didn't see Leah233's post. I agree with Leah233.

GoodEnough

Sun, Sep 06 2020, 1:58 pm

amother [ Turquoise ] wrote:

You're bringing really extreme examples. With example 1, why would I get involved in a random situation? Who is this woman and man? How am I related to them? How do I know this woman and her abusive situation? What kind of involvement are you expecting of me?

With example 2, everything is screaming, "SCAM!", I'd never get involved in something like that.

In my post, the situations I was referring to, was typical family dramas. Not extreme abusive situations.

lilies

Sun, Sep 06 2020, 2:38 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

The imamother thread about giving marriage advice for serious issues on imamother motivated me to start this thread.

That thread reminds me of a truly horrible story I remember from about twenty five years ago.

Rachel (not her real name)was a newlywed who had seen way too much success and honor in her life. She was convinced by certain disturbed family to help them in a subtle conflict they had with someone else. Out of empathy and pity for the family, youthful naivete and the arrogance of thinking she knew and understood everything, she did.

She ended up ruining the lives of at least two people. And to a certain degree her own as well.

At that point in her life everyone, absolutely everyone, was convinced that with her brains, charisma. energy and drive she would be a famous person today. A person as talented as her is very, very rare. After that story happened she ruined her reputation.

That story has always been a lesson to me about avoiding getting involved in "me against him" conflicts. Even if I feel terrible for the only side that I've heard from.

But all this is only the info you know.
Rachel may have seemed to have too much success and honor. It may have seemed that she was convinced ....it may have seemed she knew and understood everything.
Everyone may have thought she had charisma and she would be famous (???). Maybe she ruined her reputation. Maybe people shouldn't have put her on a pedestal.
There's so much you may not know.

And yes, one should avoid getting involved in conflicts.

amother

Turquoise

Sun, Sep 06 2020, 2:55 pm

ora_43 wrote:

What if the aforementioned man claims he has not even 1 dollar because wife stole all his money and his business. Therefore he's penniless and his wife is preparing a major custody battle so he needs to be "saved" from his children being totally alienated from him. In reality he's abusive and his children will not want to see him, and he knows this so HE wants to prepare a huge battle but doesn't want to use his own money so plays poor guy.. and comes to you that you should please donate at least $1000 towards this or else he'll never see his kids again.. he's crying terribly and plays it as an emergency so you don't have time to verify..