Can someone in Israel explain the lockdown

CiCi

Mon, Sep 21 2020, 5:36 pm

Elfrida wrote:

You said earlier that you didn't want to start arguments, but you seem to have come with a definite agenda to point out that the lockdown didn't and won't accomplish anything. The previous lockdown was effective. If people fully comply, this one will also be effective, and the opening up needs to be better managed. We know it's not perfect, and are very aware of the problems that accompany it. Do you have any other constructive suggestions?

Not the OP, but the lockdowns are affective or inefective according to one's definition of what the results of a lockdown should be since the only thing it does is only make the virus recede temporarily. The lockdowns ultimately won't make the virus go away, so regardless how fast or slow Israel opens up, the end result is that the virus won't go away because of the lockdowns.

amother

Linen

Mon, Sep 21 2020, 5:38 pm

CiCi wrote:

We're not trying to make it go away. We're trying to slow it down so that people won't die from lack of available treatment.

shabbatiscoming

Mon, Sep 21 2020, 6:03 pm

CiCi wrote:

Cici, nobody thinks the lock downs will make the virus go away. Its sole purpose is to slow down the rate at which it spreds. And last time, it worked great. But we opened to quickly.

amother

Linen

Mon, Sep 21 2020, 7:37 pm

CiCi wrote:

Not everyone agrees that a full lockdown is the way to go

https://www.israel21c.org/does.....work/

Is there anything that anyone ever agrees on unanimously? You'll always find articles to support either way.

I don't necessarily think a lockdown is the way to go at this point either, but I can definitely understand the premise for doing so, especially since I don't have a better solution to offer.

And I don't know how anyone can dispute that the FIRST lockdown here was successful. Look at the horrific number of deaths you had back in March. At least we enforced quarantine and locked down strictly at the beginning when no one yet knew how to treat it properly. So many lives were saved back then because of that.

amother

Mistyrose

Mon, Sep 21 2020, 8:58 pm

shabbatiscoming wrote:

Cici, nobody thinks the lock downs will make the virus go away. Its sole purpose is to slow down the rate at which it spreds. And last time, it worked great. But we opened to quickly.

As I understand it, a full lockdown is the most extreme way to slow the flow of infections. I think of it as a sink with multiple faucets. Mask-wearing closes one faucet. Outdoor minyanim closes another faucet. Capsule classrooms closes another faucet. Lockdown closes them all at once - or at least tries to, depending on how it is enforced.

imorethanamother

Mon, Sep 21 2020, 9:10 pm

Quote:

This is what I don’t understand- how did the lockdown work? Did corona die? Disappear? Vanish? If so then why and how does it “comes back” when we open stores etc? To me this is mind boggling. I have asked this plenty times and noone has an answer. Everyone is just parroting what they read online
Should we be careful with handwashing, hygiene,wearing a mask when ill, not stand on top of each other when talking? I say yes, for any germ or virus. But lockdown? I don’t think we are gaining anything.
I just heard of a couple in their 80’s who have been strict with quarantine since march, masks, gloves sd, no visits from or to family and last week the mr lost his sense of smell.
We don’t know a darn thing.

[/quote]

I agree. Lockdown - especially during yomim tovim - seem suspiciously punitive. And somehow, lockdowns seem to increase the amount of civil unrest and demonstrations. It's no coincidence that the black lives matter movement gained tremendous traction during the United States' lockdown. You had loads of people out of work, tons more working from home, all the kids had no school, there's a lot of people with a lot of time on their hands to get up to trouble.

The problem with the first lockdown is that so many people here like to announce that they "worked". What worked? You got the fire down to a simmer, and now the fire grows back. At best, you will get it down to another simmer, and then it will grow back, over and over. Until most people have gotten it and gotten over it. In fact, I would argue that the summertime might be the most opportune time to get Covid, before the winter hits and with it, the combination of the flu AND covid.

CiCi

Mon, Sep 21 2020, 9:22 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

If a super strict lockdown, where they got down to five new cases, didn't help matters, what's the point of this one? If corona is still simmering in the population, and it won't go away until enough people have had it and have herd immunity, then what's the point, exactly? As soon as you open up it will happen again, and again, and again. So just stay open.

I'm not trying to be argumentative, I'm trying to point out that this was a failed experiment, so why repeat it?

I totally agree with you. And so do many high-profile Israeli doctors. As do many doctors, scientists and professors worldwide.

salt

Tue, Sep 22 2020, 4:04 am

amother [ Linen ] wrote:

It was successful in stopping spread and saving lives, but it was devastating to the economy and to indivuals that lost their source of income.
It's a very fine line- it's easy to say lock everyone in their houses, but then you get poverty, depression, suicide, which you cannot ignore. Saving lives is of upmost importance, but you need to find a balance.
It's not so simple I don't think.
I'm glad I'm not the prime minister - it's easy to sit here and complain, but the decisions are very difficult.

SixOfWands

Tue, Sep 22 2020, 4:12 am

salt wrote:

Israelis, curious whether you think they chose this time because so many businesses and schools would be closed anyway (without considering the impact on the chagim).

What restrictions were on minyanim?

Success10

Tue, Sep 22 2020, 4:29 am

SixOfWands wrote:

I think that was certainly a major factor. And in general, the chagim lends itself to spreading germs in shuls and families visiting each other. But it's not like a month ago they said "We really need a lockdown NOW, but let's just wait until the chagim to do less overall damage" I think they were really hoping that things wouldn't get this bad. Many are calling that a bad move on their part. When it became clear that there was no alternative, maybe 2 weeks ago(?) they said let's just push it to the chagim already. I think everyone was able to get in a good davening anyway.

But all in all there is no enforcement and it just seems like a waste of a lockdown.

amother

Maroon

Tue, Sep 22 2020, 5:03 am

SixOfWands wrote:

In Israel?

In any case, the exemption in the US is known as the US Constitution. I'm sorry you find those who adhere to it to be "hypocrates" [sic].

Yes, there is an exemption for protests. There is a huge protest going on every evening on Balfour St in Jerusalem, which is almost like a party, complete with dancing, costumes, edgy performance art. They are calling for Netanyahu to step down due to alleged corruption.

Since it's legal to travel to demonstrate, many people just drove back from extended family after Rosh Hashana (which was illegal) and said they were going to a demonstration, either in Balfour or the ones in Bnei Brak (which have gotten to the point of burning trash cans and calling the police Nazis). I am not sure the ones in Bnei Brak have police approval. In any case, 'going to a demonstration' provided lots of people with excuses for travelling. It became a well known joke.

One guy even declared his kiosk a demonstration site and opened it despite the lockdown. He was fined 5000 nis, I guess the police didn't buy that one.

amother

Maroon

Tue, Sep 22 2020, 5:07 am

salt wrote:

Yes, very hard to find the right balance.

FranticFrummie

Tue, Sep 22 2020, 5:07 am

SixOfWands wrote:

They chose this time because the majority of our hospitals are at, near, or OVER capacity. Because 5,000 new cases PER DAY is not acceptable. Because entire classes needed to be sent into quarantine one a regular basis is playing havoc with the school systems, as well as the kids' need for structure.

What this is NOT, is a conspiracy against Charedim. Viruses don't care what your level of religious observance is. Viruses also don't care if you are outside after quarantine. For that matter, viruses don't care if you are shopping for new shoes, or hand sanitizer - but we have to draw the line somewhere.

The thing about "herd immunity", is that we have no idea how long antibodies last, and right now it seems to vary from one individual to the next, depending on how sick they were, and how robust an immune system they had to fight back. It's way too variable to be relied on for public safety.

If people would just put on their darn masks, and give each other some space, we wouldn't be dealing with the dire restrictions we have right now. I don't blame the government, I blame anyone who thinks their personal inconvenience is more important than the lives and safety of their fellow Jews.

I've had Covid, and I got an extremely bad case. I may be up to my eyeballs in immunity, or I may not. My doctor told me not to bother getting tested, because I'd have to go all the way to Jerusalem, and the tests are inaccurate and worthless anyway. I follow precautions, because I am not 100% sure that I am safe, or that everyone else is safe from me. Why take the chance?

We're coming up for judgement in front of the King of Kings. Some people will have a LOT to answer for. I'd rather not be among them. (I have my own aveiros, no need to add more!)

FranticFrummie

Tue, Sep 22 2020, 5:11 am

amother [ Maroon ] wrote:

Yep. There is a real meme going around Facebook. "Want to travel during the lockdown? Just say that you're heading to Balfour." Rolling Eyes

Israeli humor almost always centers around government bureaucracy.