Over-fulfilling halacha

amother

Wed, Sep 30 2020, 7:39 pm

In the past years, perhaps even decades, I started observing a tendency that worries me: not knowing the limits from which someone is patur from a mitzva...

Raboteinu zal gave us rather clear instructions up to which point we should do our best to fulfill a mitzva, and from which point on halacha did not ask us to try any more: when our health or life is at stake, we are not obliged to keep shabbat, to fast, to have a brith (hemophiliacs), to have more children etc..

So why is it that so many frum and upright jews nowadays do not want to keep those limits any more?

Why fast on Yom Kippur, but have an infusion of liquid, because, for health reasons, we should not stay without drinking or eating the whole day?

Why, when we have a gluten allergy, insist on making hamotzi on some imitation of bread?

Why suffer pangs of conscience when we have to drink on Yom Kippur so as to avoid fainting?

Why go through 10 C-sections when doctors recommend to stop at 2, maximum 3?

Why?

Is this really what the torah wants from us?

Why did we lose the clear perspective: Hashem wants us to do this and that, but he doesn't want us to kill ourselves in the process...

Come to think of it - the examples above probably would fulfill the definition of "chassid shoteh"...

imorethanamother

Wed, Sep 30 2020, 8:14 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Which Chazal are you referring to that gives out hetarim so easily for Yom Kippur? If you read any history at all, our generation is actually more maykil regarding Halacha. Heck, read the book “responsa from the Holocaust” to see what kind of questions people used to have.

And regarding bread, maybe they want to feel emotionally attached to the customs of breaking bread at the shabbos table. Maybe women want those babies.

Success10

Thu, Oct 01 2020, 4:25 am

Your examples are all varied in reasoning. Certainly the c-section example. Women know they are patur from more children. They WANT more children. They love children. It's not about halacha in that case. On the flip side, some people are very misguided, such as certain cases with Yom Kippur, and they will risk their health because they WANT to keep halacha, even though that is not the ratzon Hashem. Those people are serving themselves and not Hashem. It's a fine line and one has to be honest with themselves.

I will take the bread example. I do not know if celiac paturs one from the mitzvah of Hamotzi on Shabbos. But it might not be about what one HAS to do, it might be about what they WANT to do, out of love for mitzvos, even if they are patur. There is certainly no harm in having gluten free challah.

I heard a story that took place in Europe years and years ago. There was a pious Jew who was unable to procure a shofar in advance of Rosh Hashana, nor was anyone else in the whole town. While he was halachically patur from the mitzvah, he would not accept it. He was distraught. He loved Hashem and his mitzvos and he did not take solace from his "get out of jail free" card. He took it upon himself to learn all the halachos of shofar thoroughly as though he would be blowing shofar. I don't remember the exact ending, but somehow, right in time, someone traveled in for Yom Tov with a shofar and the mitzvah was fulfilled.

Just because you don't HAVE to do a mitzvah, doesn't mean there's anything wrong with WANTING to do it.

zaq

Thu, Oct 01 2020, 10:36 am

There has definitely been a "slide to the right." Some of it has to do with greater education: despite the sepia-tone myths about the long-gone shtetl in which every baalagalah knew Shas by heart, the reality is that many if not most Yidden had little formal Jewish education, and when they came to this country the opportunities were even fewer. Now that formal Jewish education is widely available, previously-held misconceptions can be corrected. However, this seems to work only in the direction of greater restrictions.

There are other factors spurring this rightward movement. First, you have an enormous kiruv industry bringing in people who didn't grow up with a sense of 'how far is far enough.' If you didn't grow up with the idea that tearing toilet paper is assur on Shabbat and now you learn that you have to pre-tear TP, which, face it, is an otherwise insane concept, why would you not believe that it's also assur to peel a tangerine?

Then there is the reaction to the rampant depravity and lack of self-control in society at large. Remember science class: for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. The worse society at large becomes, the harder the frum world pulls back. For most people it's not a well-thought-out response but an automatic recoil that results in a reflexive "psak" of tref.

And let's be honest, a significant proportion of the frum world is very judgmental, and that judgment affects not only day-to-day social interactions but also everything from chances of getting accepted to any given school to shidduch prospects and more. The further to the right you go, the harsher the judgment and the more comprehensive its repercussions. Rather than risk putting a foot wrong, people will become "more charedi than the charedim." Each restriction becomes the new normal and thus a vicious cycle of escalating extremism is born.

We have lost our sense of proportion. We embrace "kol hamarbeh harei zeh meshubach" and forget all about "bal tosif."

*Except, oddly enough, when it comes to food. G-d forbid you should wear eyeglasses in the latest fashion, but the taavah for "kosher that feels tref" is celebrated. Whereas pareve margarine was initially viewed with skepticism if not outright horror, and pareve creamer had to be served in its original packaging even at the fanciest affair lest someone think it was real cream, fake tref is now not only accepted but actively pursued. I have no explanation for this.

amother

Sapphire

Thu, Oct 01 2020, 11:07 am

NotInNJMommy wrote:

FYI Those I know who have had >3 c'sections have done so with full approval of their doctors. Not all doctors have a set # rule for all cases. Some evaluate on a case by case basis.

This. My doctor says some women can easily and safely have 10 and some only two. The only way to determine this is by evaluating the amount of scar tissue accumulated. Also, I think there are two schools of thought on ima, one embraces hiddur mitzvah and one doesn't. Both sides take their philosophies to an extreme according to the other side. We should all learn to respect and tolerate others way of life more.

amother

Royalblue

Thu, Oct 01 2020, 11:32 am

Zaq is right about the slide to the right. There's also a related phenomenon of halacha creep, whereby social norms get absorbed into the halachic system. Thus, for example, extravagant gift giving for engaged couples is suddenly a religious obligation, rather than just something that rich folks like to do. And so, people who want to conform to the behaviors of their society express themselves in halachic terms. You want to fast like everyone, or have as many children as everyone? Explain your behavior as chumra, rather than as conformity.

Frumme

Thu, Oct 01 2020, 12:11 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Why, when we have a gluten allergy, insist on making hamotzi on some imitation of bread?

Any of the 5 grains are eligible for hamotzi status (wheat, spelt, barley, rye, and oat). See here: https://outorah.org/p/31975/

Oats, when processed properly, are gluten free. Therefore, making gluten free challah with oat flour is not an "imitation of bread." It is bread. Therefore, someone with a gluten allergy who is not also allergic to oats can have halachically acceptable challah for hamotzi on Shabbos and Yom Tov, and according to many rabbonim should. It's not as easy as saying that because Mr X has a gluten allergy, he's exempt from having hamotzi; we can't just assume that that's the halacha. A Rabbi will be able to explain to you the best way it is possible to fulfill that mitzvah (e.g. oat matzah on Pesach).

FranticFrummie

Thu, Oct 01 2020, 12:11 pm

shabbatiscoming wrote:

Some people just love adding chumras to their lives.
Others live by the halachot they learn and no more.
I dont understand the first.
I live the second.
You cant change other people.
You do you and dont worry about the other people.

As usual, you said it better than I could!

I don't look down on people who have extra chumras. If they are functional people, I admire their desire to use chumras to bring extra meaning to their relationship with Hashem.

I certainly hope more chumradik people don't look down on me for being JPF (just plain frum). I follow halacha with all my heart and soul, just like others do.

cbsp

Thu, Oct 01 2020, 12:17 pm

I find it interesting that many of the same imamothers who have a negative view of halachic chumros (which, if you look at some of the halachos, are deciding to not being meikil rather than being machmir) have a very different approach when it comes to being machmir about corona restrictions (even when being reassured that local ordinances don't require certain precautions, such as masking outside, etc)

So it's not a lack of understanding that there can be situations where one might choose to be more stringent. It's just that their choices might not match yours.

FranticFrummie

Thu, Oct 01 2020, 12:22 pm

zaq wrote:

*Except, oddly enough, when it comes to food. G-d forbid you should wear eyeglasses in the latest fashion, but the taavah for "kosher that feels tref" is celebrated. Whereas pareve margarine was initially viewed with skepticism if not outright horror, and pareve creamer had to be served in its original packaging even at the fanciest affair lest someone think it was real cream, fake tref is now not only accepted but actively pursued. I have no explanation for this.

You make many excellent points. As a BT, I think I can answer some of them.

"BT Syndrome" is a real thing. It's like being a sophomore, "The wise fool". We know a little, and it becomes a lot. There is definitely a honeymoon phase. The more we know, the less we have to go overboard. Also, the emotional high calms down, and eventually we swing back to center. It's a pretty rare BT that stays a fanatic for the rest of their life. It's sort of like going through puberty, where everything is a Big Deal, and then becoming a reasonable adult.

As for the food, being fed is our very first memory. Providing sustenance and nurturing is part of our comfort, and taste is a crucial element. It's a deeply emotional connection to your childhood.

If you've never eaten a bacon, lettuce, and tomato sandwich on a hot July day, you won't know what that's about. "Beef Fry" makes me insanely happy.

If you've never had creamy beef stroganoff, you won't get it. Tofutti (faux) sour cream gravy with steak tips, onions, and mushrooms is delicious.

Indian "butter chicken" can be made just as well with soy yogurt and canned coconut cream.

People who have never eaten gefilte fish in their lives until they became frum, will not understand the nostalgia that it might hold for someone else.

Some day, I am going to make a "BT cookbook" and I'm going to call it "I Can't Believe it's not Treif!"

BTW, Israel has a lot of what we call "Anglo Stores", where you can buy the same brands that you could get back home. Everything from Marmite to Skippy peanut butter. The markup is about double or more from what you would pay "back home", but these stores do a very brisk business! Being homesick for familiar foods is a universal thing.

On the same vein, relief efforts to starving countries has failed when they didn't take into consideration the cultural foods of the area. Giving people strange things that they've never tasted before was a disaster, and they ended up feeding it all to their animals. The agencies found it was better to give them familiar food ingredients, and to have local people cook it in big communal kitchens, or to give out bags of ingredients for people to take home.