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You don't have to force yourself to do a mitzvah!
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amother




OP
 

Post  Wed, Oct 14 2020, 5:04 pm
From the intimacy thread about having s-x the first night.

I just want to SCREAM this!

You don't have to force yourself to do a mitzvah. You don't need to ruin your mental and emotional health or traumatize yourself FOR A MITZVAH. FOR ANY MITZVAH.

If doing something won't do any of these things then yes, do a mitzvah. Sure. Enjoy.

Having s-x is not a mitzvah if you aren't up for it or aren't comfortable. If you are drunk, or need to get wasted to have it. It's not a mitzvah if you hate every moment, are resenting it, or feel like you will have a panic attack.

This goes for s-x, for making someone a meal, doing a chesed, AND LITERALLY ANYTHING THAT'S NOT A CHIYUV! And if something IS a chiyuv then there are leniences and other things that can be done to make it easier as well.

You do not need to get permission from your Rav to not make a meal or do a chesed. You do not need permission to not have s-x either.

Basic halacha.

Thanks for listening.
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shabbatiscoming




 
 
 
 

Post  Wed, Oct 14 2020, 5:07 pm
The voice (whoever you are) of reason.
I agree with you 100%.
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amother




Bisque
 

Post  Wed, Oct 14 2020, 5:11 pm
...
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amother




Wine
 

Post  Wed, Oct 14 2020, 5:12 pm
Edit- nevermind. I still hate the mikvah so so much, and I really wish I didn’t have to force myself Crying
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sequoia




 
 
 
 

Post  Wed, Oct 14 2020, 5:13 pm
Amother bisque, each of those things are different.
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amother




Bisque
 

Post  Wed, Oct 14 2020, 5:14 pm
amother [ Wine ] wrote:
quote deleted


I deleted my post because I realized that she made it clear she was not referring to mitzvos that are a chiyuv, so it wasn't a fair attack. But we do sometimes need to force ourselves to do mitzvos even if they are not a chiyuv, and if you are not sure, yes YOU DO NEED TO ASK A RAV. Intimacy is not a black and white issue, especially the night of the mikva.

If you are not in the mood for intimacy one night, of course you don't have to. But saying that makes it sound like women can go for however long they want until they're in the mood, or they can toivel with no intention of intimacy without speaking to a rav. I don't agree.
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shabbatiscoming




 
 
 
 

Post  Wed, Oct 14 2020, 5:22 pm
amother [ Bisque ] wrote:
I deleted my post because I realized that she made it clear she was not referring to mitzvos that are a chiyuv, so it wasn't a fair attack. But we do sometimes need to force ourselves to do mitzvos even if they are not a chiyuv, and if you are not sure, yes YOU DO NEED TO ASK A RAV. Intimacy is not a black and white issue, especially the night of the mikva.

If you are not in the mood for intimacy one night, of course you don't have to. But saying that makes it sound like women can go for however long they want until they're in the mood, or they can toivel with no intention of intimacy without speaking to a rav. I don't agree.
You may not agree but many have learned that no rav needs to be asked in this instance. I learned that if ahusband and wife are in agreement about not going to the mikvah, no question has to be asked at all. And in regards to actual sez, many learned that there is nothing to ask, you speak with your spouse and decide, between the both of you and that you do not invite a rabbi into your sez life.
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amother




OP
 

Post  Wed, Oct 14 2020, 5:26 pm
amother [ Bisque ] wrote:
I deleted my post because I realized that she made it clear she was not referring to mitzvos that are a chiyuv, so it wasn't a fair attack. But we do sometimes need to force ourselves to do mitzvos even if they are not a chiyuv, and if you are not sure, yes YOU DO NEED TO ASK A RAV. Intimacy is not a black and white issue, especially the night of the mikva.

If you are not in the mood for intimacy one night, of course you don't have to. But saying that makes it sound like women can go for however long they want until they're in the mood, or they can toivel with no intention of intimacy without speaking to a rav. I don't agree.


If you have a chiyuv yes you need to speak to a Rav. And a woman DOES have obligations to have s-x in the ketubah I'm pretty sure so she cannot go weeks without having s-x for no reason.

Mikvah night I believe isn't a chiyuv but it's definitely frowned upon in chazal to just skip it for no good reason.

But having panic attacks, not feeling well, feeling emotionally not up to it, all the things I've listed in my OP are legitimate reasons not to have s-x mikvah night. Like if I feel (which has happened) I will literally have a panic attack if touched s-xually then I SHOULD not have s-x mikvah night. And a good healthy husband will support you in that as well. You can cuddle and watch a movie and have a good dinner and enjoy each other in a way you can.

There's a big difference between pushing yourself to do something you should do, that's good for you, and you will benefit from - like DH pushing himself to go to minyan or learn etc - you pushing yourself to exercise or get the laundry folded

and between doing something that will harm you mentally, emotionally or will traumatize you. I see this in other areas of society like women pushing them to be supermom, to do everything, to make fancy meals and do chesed and keep the perfect home and work.

I don't think I'm advocating for if you don't feel like s-x don't do it. S-x is something we do somewhat owe to our spouses, it's as important as an emotional connection. You can't just "not feel like doing an emotional connection".
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amother




Bisque
 

Post  Wed, Oct 14 2020, 5:27 pm
shabbatiscoming wrote:
You may not agree but many have learned that no rav needs to be asked in this instance. I learned that if ahusband and wife are in agreement about not going to the mikvah, no question has to be asked at all. And in regards to actual sez, many learned that there is nothing to ask, you speak with your spouse and decide, between the both of you and that you do not invite a rabbi into your sez life.


I know there are those who hold that way, which is fair enough. But I don't think the OP has the right to make a PSA when many of were taught differently.

Just to make it clear, you do not need to ask a rav if you are not in the mood for intimacy one night. You do need to clarify with your rav if you are allowed to toivel with no intention of intimacy. At least, that's how some of us hold and the OP needs to respect that.
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amother




Bisque
 

Post  Wed, Oct 14 2020, 5:30 pm
amother [ OP ] wrote:
If you have a chiyuv yes you need to speak to a Rav. And a woman DOES have obligations to have s-x in the ketubah I'm pretty sure so she cannot go weeks without having s-x for no reason.

Mikvah night I believe isn't a chiyuv but it's definitely frowned upon in chazal to just skip it for no good reason.

But having panic attacks, not feeling well, feeling emotionally not up to it, all the things I've listed in my OP are legitimate reasons not to have s-x mikvah night.

There's a big difference between pushing yourself to do something you should do, that's good for you, and you will benefit from - like DH pushing himself to go to minyan or learn etc - you pushing yourself to exercise or get the laundry folded

and between doing something that will harm you mentally, emotionally or will traumatize you. I see this in other areas of society like women pushing them to be supermom, to do everything, to make fancy meals and do chesed and keep the perfect home and work.

I don't think I'm advocating for if you don't feel like s-x don't do it. S-x is something we do somewhat owe to our spouses, it's as important as an emotional connection. You can't just "not feel like doing an emotional connection".


If that's what you meant, I 100% agree with you. You should never traumatically harm yourself for a mitzvah. Certainly a scared kallah on her wedding night. Even a mitzvah that's a chiyuv, you should speak to a rav and see if there are leniencies if it is causing mental harm. I spoke to a rav for leniencies in kibbud av' vem with my very, very difficult parents. But on the flip side, you should also speak to a therapist to try to resolve the issues.
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amother




OP
 

Post  Wed, Oct 14 2020, 5:35 pm
amother [ Bisque ] wrote:
I know there are those who hold that way, which is fair enough. But I don't think the OP has the right to make a PSA when many of were taught differently.

Just to make it clear, you do not need to ask a rav if you are not in the mood for intimacy one night. You do need to clarify with your rav if you are allowed to toivel with no intention of intimacy. At least, that's how some of us hold and the OP needs to respect that.


First of all - I was referring mainly to the first night. Not Mikvah night. And who says you are in the majority? Who says the way I learned it is a minority opinion?

If I know I have a legitimate reason for not having s-x I need to get permission? What if in order to HAVE s-x in a few days I need to cuddle and be close to my husband?
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amother




Taupe
 

Post  Wed, Oct 14 2020, 5:44 pm
Ooooo that was me 🙋‍♀️ I had to get drunk in the hotel room. I was so scared for intimacy, and I just wanted to get it over with without thinking about it and become niddah right away. I wasn’t forcing myself to do a mitzva because it’s a mitzva- I was forcing myself from a psychological standpoint so that I can process it and get a little more comfortable with the idea while being niddah, but also while living together, if that makes sense. When we were engaged, we didn’t know each other. We didn’t talk about anything serious ever, and we hardly saw each other. I couldn’t go from stranger to zxual partner within a matter of hours. I couldn’t even go from strangers to TOUCHING within a matter of hours. I wanted to be a niddah so that I can live with him without touching and hopefully get comfortable with the idea over the 2 weeks.
Bh it worked.
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amother




Amethyst
 

Post  Wed, Oct 14 2020, 5:51 pm
amother [ OP ] wrote:
If you have a chiyuv yes you need to speak to a Rav. And a woman DOES have obligations to have s-x in the ketubah I'm pretty sure so she cannot go weeks without having s-x for no reason.

Mikvah night I believe isn't a chiyuv but it's definitely frowned upon in chazal to just skip it for no good reason.

But having panic attacks, not feeling well, feeling emotionally not up to it, all the things I've listed in my OP are legitimate reasons not to have s-x mikvah night. Like if I feel (which has happened) I will literally have a panic attack if touched s-xually then I SHOULD not have s-x mikvah night. And a good healthy husband will support you in that as well. You can cuddle and watch a movie and have a good dinner and enjoy each other in a way you can.

There's a big difference between pushing yourself to do something you should do, that's good for you, and you will benefit from - like DH pushing himself to go to minyan or learn etc - you pushing yourself to exercise or get the laundry folded

and between doing something that will harm you mentally, emotionally or will traumatize you. I see this in other areas of society like women pushing them to be supermom, to do everything, to make fancy meals and do chesed and keep the perfect home and work.

I don't think I'm advocating for if you don't feel like s-x don't do it. S-x is something we do somewhat owe to our spouses, it's as important as an emotional connection. You can't just "not feel like doing an emotional connection".


A woman doesn't, only the man does.

(Everyone should know what is in their ketubah. It is a legally binding document. The reason it is in aramaic is so that it would be understood)
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shabbatiscoming




 
 
 
 

Post  Wed, Oct 14 2020, 6:05 pm
amother [ Bisque ] wrote:
I know there are those who hold that way, which is fair enough. But I don't think the OP has the right to make a PSA when many of were taught differently.

Just to make it clear, you do not need to ask a rav if you are not in the mood for intimacy one night. You do need to clarify with your rav if you are allowed to toivel with no intention of intimacy. At least, that's how some of us hold and the OP needs to respect that.
And again, im saying I learned that I do not have to ask a rav about the bolded. I learned I just have to discuss with my husband and we have to decide together.
I was just showing another opinion.
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amother




Jetblack
 

Post  Wed, Oct 14 2020, 6:05 pm
To ask a rabbi about your s e x life is disgusting. If you don't want to go don't go.
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amother




Pink
 

Post  Wed, Oct 14 2020, 6:07 pm
amother [ OP ] wrote:
If you have a chiyuv yes you need to speak to a Rav. And a woman DOES have obligations to have s-x in the ketubah I'm pretty sure so she cannot go weeks without having s-x for no reason.

...


No. You are mistaken.

the obligation the bride takes upon herself with the kiddushin is not to have relations with any other man than her husband.

The groom, on the other, in the ketubah, takes on the obligation to pleasure his wife with intercourse, and he is not allowed to withhold it from HER.

Those relationships are not symetrical. The ketuba contains only obligations from the husband towards the wife. The wife, on her side, grants him exclusivity over her s-xual life.

There is no chiyuv for a wife to have relations with her husband.
For example, she has no chiyuv of pru u rvu... so if she does not want more children, for whatever reason, in a period where there was no contraception, she could stop intimate life.

He, on the other hand, did not really promise exclusivity, so if she was unavailable, he had possibilities to find someone else, especially as long as polygamy was an option... That's also the background why he has an obligation to pleasure her.

If he does not feel up to pleasuring her, he cannot be forced to do it against his will, he will not be told to just get it over with, but he will have to pay a fine to her...

So the whole idea that there could be halachic grounds to force or pressure a wife into having relations with her husband is mistaken.

There is one exception: if a wife wants to have intercourse with her husband, but withholds it in order to blackmail him, then she is called a moredet, and after admonishments she will have to pay a fine to her husband, and once the amount of the fines is concurrent with her ketuba, he can divorce her without paying her anything...
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zaq




 
 
 
 

Post  Wed, Oct 14 2020, 6:40 pm
amother [ OP ] wrote:


You don't have to force yourself to do a mitzvah.

.


I believe you're way overstating the case. Of course we have bechirah chofshit, we theoretically CHOOSE to do mitzvot, but when we know that we'll be punished for failure to keep them, it's not precisely free choice. There's a reason these things are called "commandments" not "recommendations for good things to do should they parallel your philosophy of life, energy level, dietary preferences, gender identity, political affiliation, color scheme and general mood."

Sometimes you do, in fact, have to force yourself to do a mitzvah.
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amother




OP
 

Post  Wed, Oct 14 2020, 7:15 pm
zaq wrote:
I believe you're way overstating the case. Of course we have bechirah chofshit, we theoretically CHOOSE to do mitzvot, but when we know that we'll be punished for failure to keep them, it's not precisely free choice. There's a reason these things are called "commandments" not "recommendations for good things to do should they parallel your philosophy of life, energy level, dietary preferences, gender identity, political affiliation, color scheme and general mood."

Sometimes you do, in fact, have to force yourself to do a mitzvah.


There's no commandment thou must do a chested today. I was specifically talking about things that there isn't a chiyuv in.
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zaq




 
 
 
 

Post  Wed, Oct 14 2020, 9:51 pm
I don’t claim to read minds. I assume that people post what they mean, and what you now claim to mean is not what you said. Not by a long shot. If you meant solely that you don’t believe that a woman is required to have relations with her husband whether she wants to or not, you could have said so without going off on a foaming-mouthed rant about mitzvot not being obligatory. You would have come off as far more knowledgeable and credible. Your rant just made you come off as an hysteric.
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singleagain




 
 
 
 

Post  Wed, Oct 14 2020, 11:25 pm
Again. The issue here is different people have different ideas of what "forcing/pushing" yourself to do the "mitzvah" is

When one person says "just do it." They are thinking of a situation where all things being equal it's not a big deal.

And some one else reads "just do it" as traumatic.

I think the biggest confusion is langue and definition.

Which is why communication between the persons involved is the best thing.

But like a clear communication. Why do we often advise someone to just say "I'm sorry no" instead of "I'm sorry but excuse" bc one person's excuse is another person's no big deal. And when it's a private reason you don't want to have to defend yourself.

I think the same/similar thing is happening here. Someone says "just do it" bc they are thinking of a "no big deal" situation but someone else reads "just do it" as an invalidation of their private reason why they can't.

I don't think anyone would advocate "just do it" if that would cause trauma, so maybe let's try to be a bit kind and believe that the person saying "just do it" means "just do it in non-traumatic situations"
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