Has parenting in the 21st century gone off the rails?

causemommysaid

Tue, Oct 20 2020, 8:54 pm

Let me preface this by saying I never leave my children alone. I am neurotic about safety and my kids are in boosters and car seats longer than any of their friends. I have double the recommended amount of smoke and CO2 detectors. I cut my kids food into small pieces way longer than necessary. I am a super careful parent.

However, I recognize that not everyone is like me and people have different attitudes toward parenting. Although I would never do it, I don't think its the end of the world if someone shares an apartment building floor with a neighbor and they are the only tenants and share a wall and the neighbor hangs on to the monitor for 15 minutes while the mother runs out.

She has access to the child. She is one wall over. She can hear the child. It is 15 minutes. The kid is contained in a crib. It is really low risk. For those screaming about kidnapping, the risk of that is negligible. No one knows the kid is there and 99.9% of people don't want anyone else's whiny brat. No one is coming to snatch the kid. Be realistic.

I think the reactions were over the top. Do you realize that CPS has real cases to deal with? Like drug addicted moms who leave their kids alone in bad neighborhoods? Like fathers who beat their families senseless. Step fathers who molest their daughters. Kids in homes with no heat or food. Teenagers being trafficked by their mothers boyfriend. CPS doesn't need your righteous indignation for a non case.

Please tone it down and stop with the overreactions. Not every husband is abusive, not every mother in law has boundary issues, and not every mom who does the above deserves to have CPS called on her. Calm down y'all.

Let the tomatoes fly Punch

gold21

Tue, Oct 20 2020, 10:02 pm

Mommy-shaming extremists abound in this world (Oh, you don't serve a salad every night with dinner? Tsk tsk), (You give your child screen time? Tsk tsk), (You stopped breastfeeding at 6 weeks? Tsk tsk) but I still don't agree with leaving a sleeping toddler at home for a shaitel appt. To run down the block and get your older kid off the bus, sure (let's be real, most of us have done that- of course, mommy shamers would probably insist that you need to wake your toddler up to get your older kid off the bus, but I'm not a mommy shamer, I'm a realist). But for a random appt? Nah.

Didn't follow that thread through till the end, but if people suggested calling CPS, that's just reaching and an over-reaction on their part. Mama Drama.

CPS aside, I don't think it's wise to leave a sleeping toddler at home for a shaitel appt.

causemommysaid

Tue, Oct 20 2020, 11:49 pm

yksraya wrote:

I will rinse and repeat:
If there is CVS a fire, it is nearly impossible for the neighbor to simultaneously grab her kids, kids in next apartment, alert rest of neighbors if need be, and call fire Dept. Something serious can happen, like during the panic she can completely forget she is in charge of your baby.

And if you hire a teen babysitter she can also freak and leave the baby. Nothing is foolproof.

I don't believe that these worst case scenarios are a reason to call CPS on someone or mommy shame to that level.

These things have a very miniscule chance of happening.

It is more dangerous to drive in a car with a baby strapped correctly in a car seat.

causemommysaid

Tue, Oct 20 2020, 11:54 pm

gold21 wrote:

I agree with you. I wouldn't do it either. I just dont think its worthy of that level of outrange. I was really taken aback. she left the neighbor in the adjoining apartment in charge. Not my style but not THAT horrible.

yksraya

Wed, Oct 21 2020, 12:21 am

causemommysaid wrote:

nothing is foolproof, but you need to do hishtadlus. Acting irresponibly puts ones kids in danger. You can't just say "things happen" and shrug off neglectful behavior.

amother

Taupe

Wed, Oct 21 2020, 12:27 am

yksraya wrote:

nothing is foolproof, but you need to do hishtadlus. Acting irresponibly puts ones kids in danger. You can't just say "things happen" and shrug off neglectful behavior.

Many would argue that giving an amenable neighbor your key, a monitor, and your cellphone number and letting her know that your baby is sleeping in his crib IS hishtadlus.

Leaving the baby in the crib and running out for 15 minutes without telling anyone... well, that's neglectful. But that's not what we're talking about.

yksraya

Wed, Oct 21 2020, 12:37 am

amother [ Taupe ] wrote:

Do they know the risk they are taking if there is a fire CVS? Maybe if they are clueless and not educated, I would understand if they mistake that for hishtadlus. But after being warned of the hazard, that would be reckless.

amother

Taupe

Wed, Oct 21 2020, 12:45 am

yksraya wrote:

Then it comes down to what risks you consider unacceptable, and what the chances of those things happening actually are. And different people will come to different conclusions.

Realistically, what are the chances of a fire breaking out in specifically that 15 minutes, specifically in your house, and spreading uncontrollably within that time, without making any noise that alerts the neighbor (smoke alarms can be heard over a baby monitor)?

Now that you've ascertained that you consider that risk level to be unacceptable, do you consider EVERYTHING with that same risk level or higher to be also unacceptable?

You are certainly entitled to make a decision about risks, but accept that you are probably not that consistent about risk levels, and this is more about personal discomfort or fear than actual objective safety.

yksraya

Wed, Oct 21 2020, 12:52 am

amother [ Taupe ] wrote:

If I consider something neglectful I will not do it.

I am not living in fear. We travel by car and even by plane. We take proper safety measures, and we trust in hashem to keep us safe.

Leaving a monitor at a neighbor, even if next door, is not considered proper safety measures.

amother

Taupe

Wed, Oct 21 2020, 1:16 am

yksraya wrote:

Who says? And why?

Again, I think this is about personal fear, and possibly some cultural fear, more than objective safety.

MOST of us would not do something we consider neglectful. But "neglectful" is usually a pretty subjective description. Objective risk level is rarely used for decision-making, for some reason.

(That is not saying that I personally would leave for 15 minutes, I've never been in a situation where I had to consider that as an option, so I don't know if I'd deem it an acceptable risk under the circumstances.)

amother

Taupe

Wed, Oct 21 2020, 1:29 am

yksraya wrote:

I feel like I'm going in circles. Are your children objects that you would weigh the risks on? Are you the same moms who would leave the stroller outside the store, or inside the store but alone in the front? I think I'm done here...

Oh, come on. You also take risks with your kids. Do you take them in cars on unnecessary trips? Do you let them eat candy? Do you let them play outside? All of those things have inherent risks.

But you (as most of us) consider some risks to be unacceptable. Fair enough.

In some countries, kids are allowed to play with tools and start fires. In others, 5-year-olds are allowed to take the bus themselves.

If we lived there, that risk level would be normalized. Here, we've gone to some extremes. A 10-year-old is considered too young to walk around the block herself. A 9-year-old can't play in the park without dedicated adult supervision.

Is a next-door neighbor monitoring a sleeping baby reasonable? We could definitely argue about it, but I'd lean towards saying it's a decent level of hishtadlus.

I mean, if I was in the basement folding laundry, I'd also rely on the monitor (or even go downstairs without a monitor), and quite possibly for longer than 15 minutes. I'm just a flight of steps and a door away. The next-door neighbor is actually probably closer.

Nobody is saying "Statistically I could leave them alone for 8 hours before the risk level approaches X, so I'll do that." But accepting a low level of risk periodically is something we all do. Just for you, this PARTICULAR risk is socially reprehensible.

yksraya

Wed, Oct 21 2020, 1:41 am

amother [ Taupe ] wrote:

I guess I live on a different planet. I would not compare a 10 yr old playing with neighbors (in a safe neighborhood of course) to a helpless baby left alone. A monitor at a neighbor is basically like leaving alone. Neighbor has a life too, she does bath time, she sings her kids to sleep, she works or cleans or gets distracted on phone etc. Do you really think she has her ear glued to the monitor?

I assume that when you are in basement you do check on your baby, and if there is to be a fire you drop everything and grab your kids. Remember, the neighbor has got her own kids to save, before she can get to your apt.

And don't compare that to candy, if you want ppl to ever take you seriously...