little t's and crosses

micki

Tue, Nov 02 2004, 7:25 pm

just wondering what the world, does in this case. do you allow your child to make a lower case "T" to look like a cross, or do you tell her to make a loop to make sure it does not represent a tzelem.

I'm having an issue in our school where the principal had no problem with telling the kids to make a picture of a cross, and thats a little T.

I am shocked cause to me I would never use a symbol of avoda zara to teach my kids anything!!! like I would never use a church as a landmark either!!!

but do all of you out there let your kids make the cross or do you insist on a looped T.

Rochel Leah

Tue, Nov 02 2004, 7:42 pm

Micki, with reagrds to the 't''s as crosses you are 100% correct. In my work, we were putting together a program guide. One of the fonts that the graphic artist used had "t"s that looked like crosses. It was near to the end of the putting it together and we were wondering if it was such abig deal. Our boss asked my husbands grandfather, who is a Rav here in Montreal if it was an issue that needed to get fixed- was it worth it if we were in arush to get it done. The Rav said" You need to change it, even if it will delay the printing." I dont know what his reasoning was- I will ask at work tomorrow. but the same way we cant vring treif animals in our home- and that is just a chabd custom, how much more so a cross which is complete avoidah zarah.

I would insist on my kids making a looped t. but right now my kid doesnt write, sio I will see if it will be an issue when the time comes.

Ozmom

Wed, Nov 03 2004, 5:53 am

Mick it shouldn't be so difficult to teach her to loop it should it?
I thought thats the style writing they are learning now adays anyway, my kids have been doing all their letters with loops and curves.
the other thing is teach them maybe to not complete the line going through the t, just have it on the right.

Last edited by Ozmom on Sat, Aug 06 2005, 9:49 am; edited 1 time in total

ForeverYoung
Guest

Wed, Nov 03 2004, 11:50 am

You asked for a litvish opinion. The following is my personal take on the issue. Do not quote is the official litvish standard, pls.

you know, there are lots of crosses in your life -
electic tower, traffic light supports (they hold wires), telephone wires, attached to poles, patterns of fabrics, design on furniture, + sign, roads on a map, even a table on a computer screen or a notebook, a flower with 4 petals... Even on this web page there is a cross - any 2 lines crosing will create a cross.

If you will start looking for crosses, you will find them everywhere.

You see only what you're looking for. I grew up in a Christian country & I never associated all this with a cross. When I came to Israel, I was told that + is like cross. This was bewildering: Israely kids associated + with a cross, I didn't.

Now, hasidus was born & grew up when church & religion were an integral part of life, so early hasidim were very cencitive to the cross. But this is not so anymore.

I never asked a shaila about it, and will not pay attention to it. Why teach my children what a christian cross is? They know about the railroad crossing, lines crossing, crossing the streat, but not christian symbol. Children know what they're taught. If they will ask me aobut a cross on a church or a person, I will tell them this is avoda zara, period. Why point out to them where the cross may be found?

As a side note: the proper way to write letter t is w/ that little loop.

By the way, crescend and stars are symbols in muslim religions. Nobody bothers about those.....

Disclamer: I do not think in any ways that those who choose to be careful about it are doing something wrong. This is their choice & I respect it. The above is my opinion on the matter. If I were to work in public, I would make sure to respect the sencetivities of people to it.

Tefila

Wed, Nov 03 2004, 4:41 pm

Quote:

I would insist on my kids making a looped t. but right now my kid doesnt write,

Micki Totaly agree Smile

I do the same

Quote:

I would never write it without the hooks and ill iy"h teach my kids the same.

RG yep total agreement here!

Quote:

I never asked a shaila about it, and will not pay attention to it. Why teach my children what a christian cross is?

What... they are going to know from somewhere
and I am sure well not 100% that it is a shailoh! Check with your Rav Wink

Quote:

it was an issue that needed to get fixed- was it worth it if we were in arush to get it done. The Rav said" You need to change it, even if it will delay the printing."

Rochel Leah thank -you for verifying it is a shailoh Exclamation

chestnut

Wed, Nov 03 2004, 4:59 pm

ForeverYoung wrote:

well said. agree.

ForeverYoung
Guest

Wed, Nov 03 2004, 5:59 pm

guoting myself:

Quote:

By the way, crescend and stars are symbols in muslim religions. nobody bothers about those.....

any comments?

another one:

Quote:

electic tower, traffic light supports (they hold wires), telephone wires attached to poles, patterns on fabrics, design on furniture, + sign, roads on a map, even a table on a computer screen or in a notebook, a flower with 4 petals... Even on this web page there is a cross - any 2 lines crosing will create a cross.

why single out the letter t?

another one:

Quote:

Why teach my children what a christian cross is?

They are going to know from somewhere

so how will you explain why nebah 't' is the scapegoat? why are all the other crosses o'k?

In the ukrainian & russian alphabets t is written either like this: "T" or like this: "m". So my question again: "why 't'? Could anybody ask thei Rav, please?

Ozmom

Wed, Nov 03 2004, 7:19 pm

While we are on the topic can I take this opportunity to explain why we have a problem with the cross.
a xtian women told me that when she was giving speech therapy in a jewish home they were rude about telling her to put her necklace inside her shirt saying that its because hitler was xtian,etc.
needless to say she was very offended (by the way hitler believed in darwinism which the xtians don't)
anyway thats nonsence
the reason we can't look at a cross is because the cross symbolises yoshke who to the xtians is a deity which is avoda zora and we can't look at anything which represents a deity other than Hashem to someone.
(mind you this explanation the speech therapist was fine with and not offended by)

as far as muslim symbols forevery young, muslims are not pagans in anyway, they don't have any deitys other then Allah - which is another name for G-d.
that is why we can walk into a mosk but not into a church
that is the difference

a sun is a deity for some religions to therefore my husband tells me that its ok for the kids to draw the sun in the corner where it isn't complete like most kids do but he has a problem with a whole sun being drawn

micki

Wed, Nov 03 2004, 7:33 pm

well I asked a rav- 2 actually. one a lubav. and one litvish.
the lubav one said it is forbidden to use a symbol of avoda zara as a tool to teach children to learn.
to put it in context, my kids teacher told her, "nto make a little T you make a picture of a cross" now my kids happens to know what it is because she's very curious about verything, but some kids did not know. so they asked whats a cross and the teacher said make a straight line and then cross it with another. she is a non jewsih teacher who has great respect for the religion of the kids she teaches.
now remember this is a 5 yr olds perspective and words, so it could be differetn than reality but this is the way she told me.
so I called the principal and asked him to remind the teacher that we should not be refrencing the cross or even asking children to make t 's that look like one. and he disagreed with me to the point that when I asked him- "would you tell your kid, to make a T you make a picture of a cross" and he said YES!!

I was in shock so I called my rav. mine you read what he said, and then I clled a litvish rav to hear his shita and he repeated what the principal said and told me there is nothing wrong with it.

can you imagine if your kid had homework to make 100 lower case t's on a paper. to practice. and someone walked in and saw tthat sheet with all those T's /crosses. what would they think???

in answer to telephone poles and the like, that is not something you make or say "a telephone pole looks like a cross" and unless your into building those things then its not something you create. wheras an intelligent child will feel uncomfortable making a little t cause it looks like a cross. look at this font- it's a looped t. its not incorrect to make ait a loop so why not just err on the side of caution and make a loop?

Yael

Wed, Nov 03 2004, 10:07 pm

as for seeing crosses everywhere, my father used to fill in the molding of a door with plaster to make it smooth if it was in the shape of a cross. when its the exact shape, the right proportions of a cross and every time you look at it you see a cross, then that is not good. I dont know about you but I dont see a cross when I look at telephone poles or this page.
just make the t as a t with the loop and be done with it. its also correct so why is it a big deal to do it the right way?

ForeverYoung
Guest

Wed, Nov 03 2004, 11:50 pm

as I said before, the proper way to wright a t is with the loop. It's pretty sad that English teachers do not know aobut it.

So going back to avoda zara:

many things in this world were (and still are) worshipes: dogs, cows, eagles, moon, stars, sun, cross, trees...

why does is the cross singled out?
(see my above post about where this mihag was born).

P.S. I do not pay attention to these thing, I just plain don't notie them. This is why I'm having hard time understanding why I have to teach my kids to notice it. When I see an un-looped 't', I see a 't'. why would I teach my children to see a cross?

micki

Thu, Nov 04 2004, 8:50 am

forever young I thank you for responding however you are missing the point I am trying to get answered.
so please answer this question.
would you say to your child, " to make a little T we make a picture of a cross. that's how a T is made. "

this is a yes or no question.but please explian yuor answer too.

as to other things that people worship , for me I don't care if my kids make pictures of those becasue they are all mentioned in the torah and they all can be something different. but a cross is a cross and nothing more. no mention in the torah to my knowledge and no other possible use execpt for a cross.

no one is arguing, especially not me that you need to point out to a child that this letter can also be a T . why should we tell them? but if a child who already knows what it is feels uncomfortable writing it, then she shouldn't. the teacher by the way has no problem with making a looped t in fact as you mentioned she only chose the non looped version cause more of the work books were printed this way.
but I want to know your answer to the above question.
and any other litvsh out there!

ForeverYoung
Guest

Thu, Nov 04 2004, 9:32 am

micki wrote:

would you say to your child, " to make a little T we make a picture of a cross. that's how a T is made. "
this is a yes or no question.but please explian yuor answer too.

no, I would not do that. But if a teacher did it, I don't know how I would react. (Never thought about it).
sorry, I never responded to this one, b/c, as you said, why would you teach your child to draw a cross??

However, this teachers seems to have a problem.
As far as I remember from my school days, we were shown how to write letters, not told: make a line this way & that way.

But I have another question: what about the '+'?
this is also a very obvious cross.

micki

Thu, Nov 04 2004, 10:25 am

Quote:

to make a little T we make a picture of a cross. that's how a T is mad

e.

wether or not my daughters teacher said this phrase I'll never know. I believe my kid, but she is only a kid.
however it doesn't matter what she said anymore becaue both the principal of the school and the rav of the town both answered YES to this question.

as to a + sign, yes there are some people who only make a _!_
they don't make the bottom line. or they make the + but add a sloppy \ like when you make one line it drags to the next. but a + sign is not as obvious because of the length of the bottom line. it does not exactlly represent a cross wheras a T will
can you ask your rav for me? because the rav here scorned me when I suggested that the litvish I know are also makpid on this. ( iwas in some non lubavitch schools as a kid)

now another question, what about crossing your fingers? the index and middle is that somehting you do or are makpid to not, and what about lacing your fingers togeter, the 2 hands interweaving the fingers all together.
I can imagine that you've never even thought about this but these were all points that came up in my respectful argument with this rav.

ForeverYoung
Guest

Thu, Nov 04 2004, 10:43 am

you know, Micki, I think that hands &fingers is way too far fetched - than whoever is makpid should stop using electricity & ware clothing, b/c clothing is made out of crossing threads (I'm exadurating here a bit)

as far as the hands go, I was told that our Rav was asked if a person is allowed to cross his hands in a certain way & began attempting to explain verbally in which way (as he was afraid to actually do it). The Rov interrupted him by crossing his hands adn asking him: "Like this?"

So Micki, what would you like me to ask: if writing un-looped 't' is allowed or teaching that 't' is written like a cross?

Quote:

but a + sign is not as obvious because of the length of the bottom line. it does not exactlly represent a cross

sorry to dissapoint you, but as I grew up in a christian country & learned history in a non-Jewish school, and grew up not frum, I can tell you that 'even' crosses are used as symbols of chistianity too. Which brings me back to the fact that this minhag was a child of the russian Jewry's curcumstances.

An interesting note: /before quoting it anywhere, make sure to read the entire paragraph, please, and quote complete. thank you/ my hasband told me that it is said that the Vilna Gaon (the biggest litvak) was makpid even not to have the cross in his window frame. On the other hand, there is a picture of his house, where you can see those cross-shaped frames very clearly. Who knows??? Confused

micki

Thu, Nov 04 2004, 10:49 am

yes that is interesting. I am learning new things!
but please ask you r rav both questoins.
are we allowed to refer to a cross as an example to teach children? and are we permitted to make an unlooped t.
and you know the phrase "cross your fingers and hope to ..." ? that refers to a christian act I think. so are we as jews permitted to cross our fingers?
why do children cross their fingers behind their backs when asked to promise something? is this a jewish thing too?