What is considered an average salary?

gold21

Thu, Nov 19 2020, 3:09 pm

cnc wrote:

I think that’s too broad of a statement- my relatives all live in Lakewood. Their housing is much cheaper than mine but their tuition is much more expensive .

As compared to other litvish private schools, Lakewood is more affordable. As compared to chassidish private schools, Lakewood is more expensive. As compared to non-Lakewood litvish private schools but with a tuition break, it probably comes out about even.

small bean

Thu, Nov 19 2020, 3:15 pm

gold21 wrote:

OK. Since you've mentioned that your husband is a hobby farmer, I assumed that you must be the primary breadwinner since he has the time to hobby-farm (a time consuming hobby). I'm happy to hear that you don't work full time. B"H. Working full time with a large family size is not easy. Anyway, enough asking you for personal info. You don't have to respond to the continued questions. Back to the thread at hand-

It sounds like Lakewood is more affordable and requires less total income.

Lakewood is more affordable.

But im with you in lowering cost of living in jewish community for everyon. I already beat to my own drum, in that regard.

small bean

Thu, Nov 19 2020, 3:16 pm

doodlesmom wrote:

I’m impressed, maybe I need some spending lessons from you!

Off hand
2 k+ maser min
1k+ life ins
2k+savings
3 k mortgage
1 k utilities
1 k+ insurance
2 k tuition
1k cleaning help
1k car+ins+gas and toll
3k+ grocery and houseware
1k+vacation,summer,camp
1k cash on hand, gifts, etc.

No money spent yet on, tutoring, clothing, furniture, self care, sheitel, you name it....

My expenses look very different than yours. But I don't want to detail on this thread.

amother

Chocolate

Thu, Nov 19 2020, 3:21 pm

Ok, so here's the challenge, I'm trying to come up with a budget under 200k for an average size family in Lakewood, help me out.

This a hypothetical bare bones budget (not mine, just a composite from different families I have spoken to), let's see where you can scale back:

$1500 a month mortgage (let's assume they bought a house when it was still cheaper)
$500 a month utilities
$1200 a month food
$500 a month clothing (average, including Yom tov and older kids)
$1000 a month car expense - two cars, gas, plus insurance
$3000 a month tuition/playgroup/babysitting
$500 work related expenses (traveling to work, etc).
$200 a month cleaning help
$500 a month miscellaneous (everything not covered previously)

Some other expenses which would depend on family and income -

Health insurance/medical expenses
Life insurance
Savings
Maaser
Taxes
Therapy

Add this all together, and I think we're looking at close to 200k gross. Where am I wrong?

amother

Violet

Thu, Nov 19 2020, 3:22 pm

I'm with smallbean. We have 3 children BH in the tristate area. Our income is below the 200k mark. We save 3k per month. I budget very tightly and we live in a small home. We don't have a high living standard, and I think that plus siyata dishmaya work together. I work too hard to spend money on stuff that's here today and gone tomorrow. Ultimately, that is the secret. If you don't need stuff, you'll save. The more you need, the less you save. Yes, we pay full tuition, too.

amother

Violet

Thu, Nov 19 2020, 3:35 pm

For those of us that do with less, this is my restructuring your numbers:

$1400 a month mortgage
$250 maximum a month utilities
$500 a month food
$10 maximum a month clothing (buy second hand for a maximum of $120/year)
$420 a month car expense - two cars, gas, plus insurance
$3000 a month tuition/babysitting
$0 work related expenses because gas is already in the car category
$0 a month cleaning help

A $500 misc category seems very, very large to me.

Therefore, we have money for therapy for the dc that needs, savings, and tzedekah.

It's about counting pennies and not buying. Most people won't want to live our way but we are happy

amother

Silver

Thu, Nov 19 2020, 3:35 pm

amother [ Honeydew ] wrote:

Just saying... there are plenty of places in Lakewood where you can rent a nice sized townhouse for approximately $1500-$1800.

Where? A 3 bedroom basement is 12-1400. My neighbor is charging 1200 for a 2 bedroom, 1 bath basement. Includes only electric. Not gas or water. And it’s not very big.
Those are really old numbers.
I pay 8500 boys elementary tuition and over10k - with scholarship for boy high school - with no English. Girls are still 5k.

amother

Beige

Thu, Nov 19 2020, 3:35 pm

doodlesmom wrote:

I don't think you need spending lessons from anyone if this works for you.
But, I do want to out that not everyone lives in the same circles as you and has a need to spend these numbers.

Maaser is according to how much money I make
health insurance? more worth it for me to do without
3K mortage includes tenant for 1500, so its only 1500
utilities $400-$500 (why is yours so expensive?)
tuition: 1600 (Chassidish for 4 kids)
no cleaning help
no car
groceries $1500 for 6 ppl
no housewares on a monthly basis
1k a month on vacation and summer camp? We do 1 vacation every couple of years
Cash on hand barely exceeds $100 a month
Clothing: 2K annually
Furniture: Its a once-every-few-years expense

I make under 100K and put away money every month. We have a couple of secure and a couple of somewhat secure investments investments for marrying off kids, college, etc.
My salary is also consistently on the rise.
We are simply not spenders.

doodlesmom

Thu, Nov 19 2020, 3:38 pm

amother [ Violet ] wrote:

Does $120 include shoes?
$500 food- how?!

crust

Thu, Nov 19 2020, 3:48 pm

amother [ Copper ] wrote:

I have 5 kids and live in the tri state area. We bring in 70k and fall short by approximately 15-20k a year so I don’t think you need 250k to make it. I don’t want people to get disheartened by such high numbers.

You have 5 kids and they are all in yeshivas and you are marrying them off?

I can stop saying the facts. It won't help the reality.

Every single person that I know, regardless of where they live in the tristate area, that makes less than 250k either has less than 4 kids, the kids are small, the tuition is very low, or, is getting assistance through government family or tzedaka.

Last edited by crust on Thu, Nov 19 2020, 3:50 pm; edited 1 time in total

amother

Chocolate

Thu, Nov 19 2020, 3:49 pm

amother [ Violet ] wrote:

I was talking about living normally. WADR, $500 a month for food is not living normally. Unless you are talking about food for one person. Neither is $10 a month for clothing.

Also, I see that you have younger children. When you have teenagers, clothing costs are not optional. I mean, you can do whatever you want, but it's not a normal way to live and your kids will definitely resent it. And even if you don't - you never buy a new suit for yom tov? New clothing? Jewelry? Makeup? Hat? Shaitel? Those numbers do not seem realistic.

As for utilities - my water bill is almost $200 a month. And I do use air conditioning in the summer (if you live in Lakewood, I do think you must). I think $500 is pretty bare bones if you include phone service.

Some people pay more for travel to work (think subway, buses) and this is not always optional.

Also, I pay around $200 to $300 a month for gas, $400 a month insurance, and car payments. I can for arguments sake buy a car outright and not have car payments, that would still leave me with around $600 a month car expenses.

I agree you can remove cleaning help from the budget, but most people I know seem to need it so I put in a very minimal amount (most people I know spend WAY more).

And I didn't put include yom tov expenses and camp - you can add that in.

ETA: And I forgot to include braces and dental. You can add that in.

doodlesmom

Thu, Nov 19 2020, 3:53 pm

amother [ Beige ] wrote:

My maser # was based on $20k a month income discussed here and wether one can live comfortably from it.
People living comfortably should have health insurance, and even if not then you have medical expenses, dental etc. braces...
Utilities includes cell phones, phone line, water,gas electricity. How is it so cheap?
Again Cleaning help when the income is comfortable should be attainable..
Most people who can afford it have a car... you aren’t the typical.
Groceries: you’re amazing that you only spend this much. My meat, fish, wine and takeout bill is almost that....
Houseware was my wording for detergent, tissues etc

Going away for the summer in our circles should be attainable to those who are comfortable. A bungalow is minimum $5000 and comes with other daycamp expenses etc. camps are mandatory for boys a certain age and up. $2,000 per kid. Budgeting 12,000 for that including vacation is not a lot.

If cash on hand is under $100 then your kids must be young!

Clothing: shoes for 6 kids x4 plus shoes for parents (less often) is approx. $2,000

amother

Beige

Thu, Nov 19 2020, 3:58 pm

doodlesmom wrote:

All I'll say is different strokes for different folks. At this point savings/investments are more important to me than other stuff listed here, even though I can BH afford some of them and BH my kids are happy.
My oldests are young teens, and I do admit that I know I'll have to spend more when they are older.
We live in a very low maintenance community.

amother

Silver

Thu, Nov 19 2020, 4:06 pm

We make 200k. Gross. Net is a lot less. DH and I both work. It does fluctuate up a bit with side job and commission. But that is our yearly minimum bH.

We have 6 kids total - high school in Lakewood with 10 k tuition and elementary boys at 8500 and girls at 5000.
We live in a small house with low mortgage and utilities. (Tiny by Lakewood standards)
Buy our cars cash so no payments.
We spend incredibly frugally on clothing and shoes.
We don’t really go on vacations. I haven’t been on a plane in 14 years!!
We don’t really spend on furniture (haven’t bought something in years) or home repairs (DH or I will do it)

We save max 401k monthly and $800 \ month toward future kids expenses a month.
Iy”H when we start making weddings or supper we will have that savings so it won’t hurt as much even if our salaries don’t increase drastically.

It is possible to make under 250k and save and live happily.

crust

Thu, Nov 19 2020, 4:09 pm

amother [ Silver ] wrote:

Have you married off children yet? Will you have to support? How many kids in yeshivas?

amother

Chocolate

Thu, Nov 19 2020, 4:11 pm

amother [ Silver ] wrote:

We make 200k. Gross. Net is a lot less. DH and I both work. It does fluctuate up a bit with side job and commission. But that is our yearly minimum bH.

We have 6 kids in high school in Lakewood with 10 k tuition and elementary boys at 8500 and girls at 5000.
We live in a small house with low mortgage and utilities.
Buy our cars cash so no payments.
We spend incredibly frugally on clothing and shoes.
We don’t really go on vacations. I haven’t been on a plane in 14 years!!
We don’t really spend on furniture (haven’t bought something in years) or home repairs (DH or I will do it)

We save max 401k monthly and $800 \ month toward future kids expenses a month.
Iy”H when we start making weddings or supper we will have that savings so it won’t hurt as much even if our salaries don’t increase drastically.

It is possible to make under 250k and save and live happily.

I said above that 200k is very do-able in Lakewood.

Making that much puts you in the top tenth percentile of household income in the US.

By definition, 90% of people are not in the top 10%.

I know a lot of people who are making less and they are really, really struggling. Even though they live super frugal.

doodlesmom

Thu, Nov 19 2020, 4:15 pm

amother [ Silver ] wrote:

Here’s the key word, living happily vs. living comfortably!
Living happily is definitely more important, but living comfortably is being discussed here!