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Woke culture in Israel vs. The USA
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amother




OP
 

Post  Mon, Nov 30 2020, 1:12 pm
I want to make aliyah. Besides for wanting to live in Israel, which has always been a dream, I am very uncomfortable with the direction of politics in the USA. I absolutely hate woke culture, intersectionality, BLM, CRT and all of that. I never hear about that stuff being mainstream in Israel, but is it? Is it popular in Universities the way it is in the USA? I don't want to move to a different culture only to find out it has all the same problems I am trying to get away from.
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ShishKabob




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, Nov 30 2020, 1:18 pm
I would say it's bound to get there at one point or the other. sorry
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amother




Aquamarine
 

Post  Mon, Nov 30 2020, 1:23 pm
On the campus of Hebrew U, Ben Gurion, and Tel Aviv University, and in some columns in Ha'aretz, you'll find some of the woke culture. That's about it.

The thing is that Israel has its own areas of craziness. I happen to think they are totally worthwhile, but you can't come here expecting everyone to agree with you.
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amother




OP
 

Post  Mon, Nov 30 2020, 1:27 pm
What type of craziness? I want to go into this move with my eyes wide open.
I don't need everyone to agree with me, but it's at the point where in University and the corporate world in the USA it's dangerous to your future not to agree with wokism. I don't think all cultures are the same, so I don't agree that it's bound to become mainstream in Israel if it's not already very popular.
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amother




Aquamarine
 

Post  Mon, Nov 30 2020, 1:31 pm
On the far right and far left, there may be expectations of intellectual conformity. But Israelis are practical people, and generally speaking, they cut through the garbage pretty quickly.

If you are planning a career in academia, particularly in the liberal arts, you might confront a certain amount of wokeness. Otherwise, not really.
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essie14




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, Nov 30 2020, 1:47 pm
amother [ Aquamarine ] wrote:
On the far right and far left, there may be expectations of intellectual conformity. But Israelis are practical people, and generally speaking, they cut through the garbage pretty quickly.

If you are planning a career in academia, particularly in the liberal arts, you might confront a certain amount of wokeness. Otherwise, not really.

I agree.
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LovesHashem




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, Nov 30 2020, 1:57 pm
In Tel Aviv, if you do marketing or anything in a high tech sector you will have to deal with that as well. Like LGBTQ parties and support during pride month.

But you will be much more understood to miss and not be involved in these things if you choose.
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southernbubby




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, Nov 30 2020, 2:42 pm
I wonder how many frum people encounter the woke culture in the US unless they are on social media. Once in awhile there is a BLM lawn sign or someone has a BLM mask but it doesn't impact my life at all. My son lives in RBS bet and I don't think that they even know what it is there.
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amother




Bronze
 

Post  Mon, Nov 30 2020, 2:46 pm
southernbubby wrote:
I wonder how many frum people encounter the woke culture in the US unless they are on social media. Once in awhile there is a BLM lawn sign or someone has a BLM mask but it doesn't impact my life at all. My son lives in RBS bet and I don't think that they even know what it is there.


Do you work in secular environment? I do (in the US) and it’s definitely there. I don’t mind It for the most part it but you cant deny it’s there.
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chanchy123




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, Nov 30 2020, 3:07 pm
Israeli culture and Israelis in general are very tolerant of other people, so absolutely LGBT people are accepted in the workplace and society, but extreme wokism and progressiveness are looked down upon by most Israelis. Yes, of course there are wokesters here, on college campuses and in mainstream media etc. But most people don’t have patience for such nonsense, the thought police is not so present in your daily life. Of course if you happen to be part of a college liberal arts program or actually the art scene in general, you’d be in wokeland, but you wouldn’t need to hide conservative ideology in the workplace, people would assume you’re conservative anyway if you are an Orthodox women,
There is a reason Israelis overwhelmingly supported Trump over Biden, he is perceived as more in tune with the Israeli free speaking mentality and people were weary of the woke supporters of Biden.
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southernbubby




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, Nov 30 2020, 3:37 pm
amother [ Bronze ] wrote:
Do you work in secular environment? I do (in the US) and it’s definitely there. I don’t mind It for the most part it but you cant deny it’s there.


I don't work in a secular environment but what are you expected to do? Are you expected to march in protests on your day off? Do they expect monetary contributions? How exactly does it involve you?
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amother




Babypink
 

Post  Mon, Nov 30 2020, 3:37 pm
I agree with what others said - in general, Israelis are too practical and blunt for the tiptoeing that woke culture requires, or for 'cancel culture'.

I live in a regular, mixed city here and woke culture is not a thing here. That said, among the secular and also among the LW dati leumi, there is an acceptance of gay people, and a growing acceptance of trans people. Slurs against gay people would be totally unacceptable in most secular or dati leumi places today, just as slurs against Arab people would not be accepted in many places.

If you work in a secular place, you may very well find yourself working with gay people (trans people not so much).

Of course, I'm talking about official professional places of work. Israeli society is very mixed, and if you go down to the local falafel stand you may very well hear lots of gay jokes. Some of them aren't that offensive, it's the same way Israelis will laugh at Teimanim or Ashkenazim or whatever.

The further you get from Tel Aviv, the less politically correct things get. Somewhere like Tiberias or Tzfat is as far from woke as it gets (though again, even there, in official professional secular settings, you don't want to be insulting others. But I doubt you'd want to do that anyway).

Also, as others said, if you are visibly frum, people assume you hold conservative, old fashioned values (this assumption is not always true of course).

In short, if woke culture bothers you that much, stay away from Tel Aviv, stay away from very wealthy secular Ashkenazi areas, stay away from Tel Aviv U and liberal arts departments in secular colleges. Other than that you should be fine.
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amother




Bronze
 

Post  Mon, Nov 30 2020, 3:43 pm
southernbubby wrote:
I don't work in a secular environment but what are you expected to do? Are you expected to march in protests on your day off? Do they expect monetary contributions? How exactly does it involve you?


There was definitely a BLM gathering midday that all employees were encouraged to attend (I had a Work conflict So was able to say that if someone said anything which they didn’t) There are emails from CEO occasionally supporting BLM or LGBTQ. There are awareness seminars. Nothing is mandatory but they are offered. Again these don’t bother me so much but it’s THERE. It’s in the background of the culture.
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southernbubby




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, Nov 30 2020, 4:20 pm
amother [ Bronze ] wrote:
There was definitely a BLM gathering midday that all employees were encouraged to attend (I had a Work conflict So was able to say that if someone said anything which they didn’t) There are emails from CEO occasionally supporting BLM or LGBTQ. There are awareness seminars. Nothing is mandatory but they are offered. Again these don’t bother me so much but it’s THERE. It’s in the background of the culture.


Personally I would have no problem going to an awareness seminar but wouldn't want pressure to donate time or money but that would be true even if the company was frum.
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amother




Bronze
 

Post  Mon, Nov 30 2020, 4:22 pm
southernbubby wrote:
Personally I would have no problem going to an awareness seminar but wouldn't want pressure to donate time or money but that would be true even if the company was frum.


Right but Sounds like OP wouldn’t be ok with what I’m describing.
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Rappel




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, Nov 30 2020, 5:14 pm
amother [ OP ] wrote:
I want to make aliyah. Besides for wanting to live in Israel, which has always been a dream, I am very uncomfortable with the direction of politics in the USA. I absolutely hate woke culture, intersectionality, BLM, CRT and all of that. I never hear about that stuff being mainstream in Israel, but is it? Is it popular in Universities the way it is in the USA? I don't want to move to a different culture only to find out it has all the same problems I am trying to get away from.


There was a George Floyd protest in Tel Aviv. I think it had 15 people. Can't Believe It

OP, I'm not saying there aren't leftists in Israel. You'll find them in the postmodern, post-zionist section of society, mostly centered around secular Tel Aviv.

But:
A) they're not mainstream or a even close to a majority and
B) I don't think they ever will be. Israeli culture is very traditional, and even those whom bend over backwards to the extreme end of "woke" end up back where they started without realising it. One of my favourite examples was a campaign video to demonstrate that female combat soldiers are no different than male combat soldiers. In the video, they had two lines of soldiers, female and male, run up to and jump over a high wall... Except they put a bench by the wall as a step up for the female soldiers. LOL

In short: welcome to Israel, I'm really happy you're coming! How can I help?
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amother




Babypink
 

Post  Mon, Nov 30 2020, 5:36 pm
Rappel wrote:
There was a George Floyd protest in Tel Aviv. I think it had 15 people. Can't Believe It

OP, I'm not saying there aren't leftists in Israel. You'll find them in the postmodern, post-zionist section of society, mostly centered around secular Tel Aviv.

But:
A) they're not mainstream or a even close to a majority and
B) I don't think they ever will be. Israeli culture is very traditional,


I don't think this is exact. There are leftists spread throughout Israel, in many yeshuvim. The more Ashkenazi yeshuvim tend to be more leftist leaning.

Left ideologies are not mainstream, but they are not fringe either. The niches of society which are more highly educated (like hi tech for example) have many companies which are quite leftist in culture.

It also depends what you mean by 'left'. If we move away from politics and focus on social issues (LGBQT rights etc) you will find that it is an issue that is discussed openly in many secular high schools, with tolerance highly promoted. Again, this depends on locale, but it's definitely not just Tel Aviv.

When you say Israeli culture is very traditional - it depends where. There are cities where the secular population is mesorati, and there are cities where they absolutely are not. And even the 'traditional' Israelis are changing. It's not what it once was.

As for the George Floyd protest - of course no one showed up. No one cares that much about American politics, if at all (sorry America). But look how many people show up to the weekly protests against Netanyahu. Some of those protesters overlap with leftist ideologies.

All this said, I don't think it should be an issue for op, unless she specifically seeks a job or a home in a left-leaning enclave. Most other places have a mix and don't expect everyone to be on board with leftist ideologies. Especially not a frum woman (she will need to be able to work with diverse people and respect them, if she is in a secular workplace. But she won't be expected to march in the Gay Parade).
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amother




OP
 

Post  Mon, Nov 30 2020, 5:37 pm
Thank you for all the replies, they are very helpful. Just to clarify, I'm not talking about gay rights, I have no problem with full rights for LGBT and I firmly believe in live and let live. I'm talking about stuff like feeling pressured to attend BLM protests, having quotas at work for "diversity" hires, being told that I'm privileged because I'm white, (the subtext being that anti semitism is not really oppression).
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amother




Babypink
 

Post  Mon, Nov 30 2020, 5:51 pm
amother [ OP ] wrote:
Thank you for all the replies, they are very helpful. Just to clarify, I'm not talking about gay rights, I have no problem with full rights for LGBT and I firmly believe in live and let live. I'm talking about stuff like feeling pressured to attend BLM protests, having quotas at work for "diversity" hires, being told that I'm privileged because I'm white, (the subtext being that anti semitism is not really oppression).


I see.
There won't be pressure here to attend any protests, in fact most people simply don't attend protests at all, certainly not on work time. (There are exceptions - maybe on a day that a woman has been murdered by her spouse, there will be something said or done against domestic violence in some workplaces. But I don't think that's exactly controversial).

Diversity hires - it's not the law. HOWEVER, some companies do want diversity, and you will have a larger chance of getting hired in hi tech as a woman, for example (as long as you have the right skills). Same with Ethiopians and Arabs - in SOME places there is SOME push to hire them more, since in so many places they can't even get their foot in the front door. (BTW the same is for women - companies traditionally preferred men because pregnancies and second shift wouldn't interfere with their work. So any affirmative action combats that).
How prevalent is a diversity hire? Far less common than in the states, that's for sure.

Being told you are privileged? Yes, it exists here. Ashkenazim are often told they are privileged, and that mizrachim/North Africans/Yemenite don't have the same starting point. However, this is something that is mainly theoretical and doesn't really touch one's daily life. If you live among non-Ashkenazim (half of Israel) you may hear this a lot, but it doesn't have much practical application.

Definitely there is a renaissance of mizrachi/North African culture, music, food, mentality, and Ashkenazi culture is not as popular right now.
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amother




Burgundy
 

Post  Mon, Nov 30 2020, 6:01 pm
I can't speak to Israel. But for explaining wokism, well I'm very liberal and I believe in civil rights for gay and transgender people even if I do not agree with their choices. I believe in reforming police to be true protectors of the people and not a militarized force that sees "civilians" as the enemy, especially if they are indigenous or black. I think America need a reckoning with its history of oppressing the communities of black Americans who are descendents of slaves.

However, there's now an extreme movement happening in the US. For example, it's becoming offensive to use the word "woman" because trans people might feel excluded. So you have nonsense like "people who bleed" or "menstruators" and dehumanizing phrases like "black birthing bodies" (see here) because "woman" and "mother" are not considered inclusive terms. This is creeping into the workplace. If you don't put your pronouns in your email signature at my work it's not considered inclusive enough (ignoring the fact that trans and nonbinary people are often uncomfortable with having to do this!). It's all "gender minority" now and there is no sexism anymore. My workplace no longer claims to not discriminate on the basis of relations, but on gender identity. If you're a rich white man you can claim you're a woman and boom, respecting your pronouns is more important than s-xual harassment or being fired on flimsy grounds if you're a pregnant woman.

The extreme left also is trending to dehumanization and infantilization of minorities in the US. Consider the contrived "race" Latino, which ignores the fact that there are millions of people multiple countries containing multiple cultures stretching from Tiajuana to Tierra del Fuego. Boy was the extreme left shocked to find that Cubans and US-born Americans of Mexican heritage voted very differently than they assumed. Same with other "brown people", such as Americans of Vietnamese heritage. The left also assumes that everywhere is the same as the US, ignoring the fact that different cultures struggle with equality in different ways and with different populations let alone that the rest of the world is not obsessed with the made-up concept of race like the US.

Wokism is rebranded racism and hadarat nashim in the US.
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