I'm really trying to understand proper pronouns-sensitive to

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amother

Mon, Dec 14 2020, 10:47 am

So for work we had a sensitivity training. As part of the training we were taught proper pronouns for people who identify as non binary. THEY refer to themselves as they, them, their. I just don't understand , it completely throws me off..they are one person! I was reading an article of a celebrity who identifies himself as the same pronouns and the whole article was about how THEY are having a hard time coping and THEY is having a hard time coping with THEIR true identity..and I kept looking for more than one person (THEY) were talking about..but when THEY was quoted, THEY kept saying "I'..I just find it very confusing and I dont want to insult anybody but how are we just changing the English language?

amother

Violet

Mon, Dec 14 2020, 10:49 am

This is a new rule in APA writing as well. There's no more he/she or his/her, only they.

ExtraCredit

Mon, Dec 14 2020, 10:50 am

I’d love to join that training. I use “they” when I don’t specify the gender I’m talking about. I think it’s grammatically acceptable!

WhatFor

Mon, Dec 14 2020, 10:52 am

amother [ Violet ] wrote:

This is a new rule in APA writing as well. There's no more he/she or his/her, only they.

Is it new to APA? I remember learning this a while back in an English class. It's simply less clunky than writing "his or her"

DrMom

Mon, Dec 14 2020, 10:56 am

Ugh. I find it absurd that someone actually expects us to entirely restructure the English language to accommodate this mishugas.

I'm not buying into these practices.

Last edited by DrMom on Mon, Dec 14 2020, 11:01 am; edited 1 time in total

sequoia

Mon, Dec 14 2020, 10:59 am

https://youtu.be/NRUG_ysSpus

Enjoy

amother

Rose

Mon, Dec 14 2020, 11:05 am

WhatFor wrote:

Is it new to APA? I remember learning this a while back in an English class. It's simply less clunky than writing "his or her"

This. We used 'they' as a general pronoun in HS over 30 yrs ago.
As in 'if you meet someone, and you do not get along with them....'
This was before him/her came on the scene.

I agree it is confusing to use for a specific person.

FranticFrummie

Mon, Dec 14 2020, 11:24 am

Where I have a problem, is when someone gets all angry and up in your face if you don't call them what they prefer. A simple, gentle correction is usually all it takes. If someone has a preference, do you really gain anything by saying something intentionally that you know for a fact will upset them?

Suppose someone you know earns a doctorate or smicha. It may take you a while to start calling them Doctor or Rabbi instead of Mr., Mrs., or Miss/Ms. You'll stumble at first, but you'll get used to it.

Suppose your DD decides that she prefers to go by her middle name? Again, you get used to it.

I believe that it's only polite to call people what they want you to call them. (and if uncle Moishe decides to go by Miriam, it would be awkward as heck, but I'd roll with it.) I don't use my legal first name, and I would be REALLY annoyed if someone insisted on using it. I also do not want my Hebrew name turned into a nickname. Say the whole thing, please.

Grammatically speaking, Victorians always used "they" when referring to women who they were not closely related to. It was considered improper to refer to a lady's gender. Wink

For example, if you are writing to your uncle, and you want to tell him a story about the woman who runs the dry goods shop on the corner, you would say "They were so rude and unhelpful!" The same thing if you had a crush on someone. "They are so lovely, and I would like to make their acquaintance."

Even now, there are uses for the singular they, especially if you don't know much about the person who is the topic of discussion. "I heard that Leah is seeing Dr. Smith. She says that they are a very good doctor." It's much smoother than using he/she. If Dr. Smith is the most qualified in the field, who cares what gender they are? (See, I used it again!)

shmosmom

Mon, Dec 14 2020, 11:24 am

I was in third grade very many years ago. We did learn that they can be singular or plural. When you don't know the gender of a person in a sentence, they is a way better option than saying he or her. Everybody loves their own mother. Proper, inclusive sentence.
There used to be a word zir to have similar meaning. I never understood how to use that one properly, and I don't think it ever was used much.

(When I was in college, my teacher made us write his or her every time instead of their. It was really annoying and made many sentences sound cumbersome. I think many professors these days would accept it, in fact I'm unsure if him/her or (s)he is accepted anymore. )

If you're having a hard time figuring out how to use they properly, just make believe you don't know the gender of that person. Many people using they/them pronouns are gender non confirming so you wouldn't be that far off. If you're still having a hard time, you can always use the person's name.

watergirl

Mon, Dec 14 2020, 11:36 am

I can relate in a way because my husband decided to use his hebrew name when he became frum and he gets very upset when people who know better (his parents and sibling) intentionally call him by his english name, knowing it upsets him. He lets it go. Its been over 25 years not. But they are all "this is what I named you, you changed, not me, I am not calling you by that new name (that they chose, by the way!). Also, one of my kids old schools decided on their own to refer to me by my hebrew name on mailings and written correspondence (they had it because of the school application which asks for the mother and fathers legal and hebew names if they differ) and decided on their own to use my hebrew name. I hate that name and asked them many times to change it to my english name which is what I go by. They would not. So I understand to a degree.

I know its WORLDS apart and not at all the same and using a hebrew name. But I know how I believe in regards to their gender... I don't need to rub it in and point it out to them every time I interact with that person. If it makes that person happy, it does not bother me to use the pronoun they prefer.

giselle

Mon, Dec 14 2020, 11:41 am

I just can’t believe that in 2020 no one has come up with a pronoun that is not gender specific.

amother

Coffee

Mon, Dec 14 2020, 12:17 pm

In a שטיסל scene , the father talks to the secretary (aliza) in plural
אתם רוצים ללכת
It took me a moment to realize he was told talking to one person
It seems that plural pronouns are used in other languages too.

#BestBubby

Mon, Dec 14 2020, 12:25 pm

I hope we still have free speech in this country and are not FORCED to use pronouns
that offend us or are against reality.

In the Torah it stresses when Hashem created people - Zochur and Nikeivah.

The Torah doesn't mention race at all - but male and female is emphasized.

bigsis144

Mon, Dec 14 2020, 12:26 pm

giselle wrote:

I just can’t believe that in 2020 no one has come up with a pronoun that is not gender specific.

Neopronouns like ze/hir, xe/xem etc. exist in English, but most people are comfortable using existing words like the singular “they”.

I think it’s almost 80% of non-binary people who use “they”; whether it’s because that’s their first preference or because it’s most likely to be adopted by people in their lives, I don’t know.

Last edited by bigsis144 on Mon, Dec 14 2020, 12:27 pm; edited 1 time in total

sarahmalka

Mon, Dec 14 2020, 12:27 pm

Language evolves and adapts. This is not new. We aren't talking about changing the letters of the Torah, people. There is nothing sacrosanct about language (except arguably Hebrew). Every year new words and definitions get added to the dictionary.
Now it's a whole different conversation about whether or not you agree with a person deciding their own zex that contradicts or supercedes their biology.

amother

Rose

Mon, Dec 14 2020, 12:33 pm

amother [ Coffee ] wrote:

Yes, this.
At my work, some of my more chardal (RW dati leumi) colleagues refer to me in plural when talking to me, as in מה שלומכם. It's like a formal way of speech, less personal and direct, and I guess in their opinion more tzanua. (They don't use it for most verbs - as in they will say, את מסיימת עם מכונת הצילום- but they do use it for general questions like how are you).

And in French you have 'vous' of course, which can refer to a singular person.

yksraya

Mon, Dec 14 2020, 12:35 pm

ExtraCredit wrote:

I’d love to join that training. I use “they” when I don’t specify the gender I’m talking about. I think it’s grammatically acceptable!

Yeah. I always used "they" in this context.

amother

Rose

Mon, Dec 14 2020, 12:35 pm

BTW in Hebrew in many circles, it's becoming common to add the female suffix when talking to the general public. As in:
ברוכים.ות הבאים.ות
It is a bit cumbersome, and Israelis don't usually have extra patience, so it's surprising that it's caught on in a lot of places.
(I have colleagues who when whatsapping to the team will take care to add the female suffix to every verb/adjective)

princessleah

Mon, Dec 14 2020, 12:57 pm

I used to object to it from a grammar perspective, but as someone above pointed out, language changes and evolves. And here if it is changing to be more kind and inclusive, how can I argue with that?

But I disagree that all non-binary people use "they." I work with someone who officially identifies as non-binary but still uses 'she.' The ideal, of course, is to just ask people how they would like to be addressed, and do that.

chicco

Mon, Dec 14 2020, 12:59 pm

If a person can change his or her gender, why can't we change the English language?

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