Bnos Sarah vs Machon Raaya and everything in between

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Crookshanks

Thu, Dec 24 2020, 11:35 am

amother [ Royalblue ] wrote:

I think good options are Binas(I wrote a short post earlier about this), and Seminar (right now they seem to be pushing towards a more academic style place).

Seminar is an awful choice for OP's daughter. Extremely yeshivish, and gets more and more yeshivish every year. Most if not all girls marry learning boys.

chagru

Thu, Dec 24 2020, 11:36 am

amother [ Mint ] wrote:

Have you considered Bnos Yehudis? It’s a 1-year Gateshead type sem. Supposed to be excellent for girls who love in-depth meaningful textual learning. Of course the teachers are yeshivish but the girls aren’t necessarily, and if you’re strongly considering Bnos Sarah and Bnos Avigayil it could be a good option for you.

bnos yehudis is way too frum for OP description of her daughter. Chemdas and Tehilas is also out. Seminar could be an option, but depends on the year. Bnos Sarah or bnos avigsyil sounds like a better match.

amother

Emerald

Thu, Dec 24 2020, 2:32 pm

I wouldn’t think too much BA not having an open house. Bnos Sarah doesn’t have one either. It is not true that girls who apply to Machon Raaya don’t get into Bnos Sarah. My DD applied to Machon Raaya and got into Bnos Sarah as did many from her high school over the years. Some of them even turned down Bnos Sarah to go to Machon Raaya. I am concerned about this advice to only apply to 2 schools. 3 is the standard, especially when applying to academic competitive schools. You are paying the application fee, OP- if you want to apply to more schools, do it! It is true that there are limited spots and schools can only push for a few kids, but these are great girls and they deserve to have options!
In my opinion, BYA, Seminar, and Bnos Yehudis, Chemdas, Tehilas, are way too yeshivish for OP’s DD. Bnos Chava too in town.

amother

Thu, Dec 24 2020, 8:44 pm

amother [ Plum ] wrote:

OP, from what you wrote, I wouldn't send to Ateres. I sat in on a few classes in the highest track when I was looking into seminary, and I found it interesting, but not at all intellectually stimulating. Most girls there have a very weak background in textual learning and even the highest class compares more to my very low academic high school.

Thanks. plan on listening to their virtual open house tonight.

amother

Thu, Dec 24 2020, 8:48 pm

amother [ Royalblue ] wrote:

I think good options are Binas(I wrote a short post earlier about this), and Seminar (right now they seem to be pushing towards a more academic style place).

not familiar with Binas but will see what can find out.

seminar was in the running but bec of its "inconsistent quality" we decided against.

amother

Thu, Dec 24 2020, 8:51 pm

susanstohelit wrote:

My cousin went to Bnos Avigayil last year and absolutely loved it- from what I can tell from your description of your daughter, she sounds a lot like my cousin in terms of frumkeit level, priorities, and academic standing.

She wanted a less "in-towny" place (she's from in-town and had a hard time in high school) and the friends who she's in touch with now are literally from all over the world! (A lot of the hanhala is British, which she said helped- there was much less of an in-towny mindset built in as a result.) She found the school to be warm but also sensible and matter-of-fact, which she found to be a great mix. She and her friends are all in college now (one is shana bet but will continue on to college) and while none are yet married, they seem to be solidly in a learner/earner place (kollel for a year or two, then college/job).

(I will add that I myself went to Michlalah and a decent number of teachers actually overlap- not just the usual suspects who teach everywhere, but some excellent teachers who, as far as I know, teach ONLY at both Michlalah and Bnos Avigayil. To me that's definitely a point in favor.)

One thing I will note is that my cousin struggled a bit at first with the emphasis on source-based learning, learning inside texts, etc- that is taken seriously there. Then again, that to me is a sign of a school that wants to make sure that the students are gaining skills, which is great! I do want to make clear that I do NOT think that it is a destination for less intelligent/academic students at all. My cousin was academically in about the same place as how you describe her daughter, and her friend group has students in pre-medical, pre-law, business, and psychology programs.

thank you for the information - BA is now in her top 3.

how does their overall academics compare against bnos sarah and machon raaya?

amother

Thu, Dec 24 2020, 8:58 pm

amother [ Mint ] wrote:

I dont think its for my dd based on what I read.

amother [ Mint ] wrote:

I would recommend emailing the seminary offices and asking them to send you their weekly schedule. That helped us narrow down which ones to apply to. Some of the sems had too much free time so we knew they were geared toward kids who wanted to go out to eat or visit family a lot, which is fine but not what my dd wanted. Some had a lot of classes that just didn’t excite her.

Our dd’s school encouraged everyone to apply to three schools. That’s pretty typical.

excellent idea, so will try.

the principal suggested sending out only 2 applications bec one of the choices was bnos sarah. if it were any other girl/seminary, then it likely would be 3. despite this, I think we will send out 3,

amother

Thu, Dec 24 2020, 9:05 pm

chagru wrote:

not disagreeing with you, but can you please explain to me how bnos yehudis/chemdas/ tehilas is so much frummer then bnos sarah?

Blueberry Muffin

Thu, Dec 24 2020, 9:07 pm

Aside from word of mouth and virtual open houses, where do you all find out concrete information about all of the Bais Yaakov seminaries? They don't have websites. Contact information, tuition, Covid protocol, Poland trips, pesach programs, start and end dates, policies......

We live OOT and send to the local BY high-school where my daughters are thriving. We too are a frum YU-right type family where my girls are not looking to marry Kollel learners and plan to get college degrees. We are looking into Michlalaha and Machon Raaya.

amother

Thu, Dec 24 2020, 9:14 pm

amother [ Emerald ] wrote:

it doesnt bother me, though I dont understand why bnos sarah & avigayil wouldnt have at least some kind of open house. whats the chances that out of all the seminaries in israel, 2 of my dd top choices dont have any way to connect/appeal to prospective students.

I can only repeat what dd's principal told her.

thank you for all the information provided in this thread. we basically ruled out all those seminaries for those reasons.

amother

Thu, Dec 24 2020, 9:25 pm

Blueberry Muffin wrote:

both excellent choices. if we were more MO as a family, michlala likely would be her top choice.

to answer - I have NOT found any concrete info for the exact reasons u mentioned. but honestly "Covid protocols, Poland trips, pesach programs, start and end dates" were not important to me.

my search began with dd's principal and school seminary advisor. once the ball got rolling, it expanded to fellow parents in the parsha, graduates of school in question, as well this website where I read threads going back to 2015. lastly, we were in contact with a NY school principal thats been doing seminary referrals for 20+ years.

amother

Teal

Thu, Dec 24 2020, 10:51 pm

I went to bnos sara but think michlalah is perfect for her. Not sure why you think it is modern. It primarily attracts right wing YU types who start out in kollel/ rabbanus.

amother

Thu, Dec 24 2020, 11:02 pm

amother [ Teal ] wrote:

I went to bnos sara but think michlalah is perfect for her. Not sure why you think it is modern. It primarily attracts right wing YU types who start out in kollel/ rabbanus.

Don’t mean modern as less frum, merely as modern orthodox. We’re OOT, so can have an equally frum MO person as a frum yeshivish person if that makes sense.

My dd feels more comfortable around OOT bais Yaakov girls even though most of her classmates lean towards the MO side.

amother

Silver

Fri, Dec 25 2020, 4:04 am

I identify very much with your daughter. I wanted exactly the same things when I went to seminary a few years ago. Also from a more modern but somewhat Yeshivish background, highly academic, OOT, good girl with an uncomplicated background, not into kolel so much.

I deliberated between Machon Raaya (which was still very OOT at that point) and Michlalah. I chose Machon Raaya coz I also felt Michlala was more modern.

Looking back, though, I wish I went to Michlalah in a way. What I didn't realize at the time, but realize now that I live and am raising a family in Israel, is that the BY seminaries here on the whole, especially the more serious ones, DO PUSH KOLEL. The teachers are generally Israeli Chareidi (eventhough many are Americans, they still are integrated into Israeli Chareidi society) and that is very much their mindset, at least in my experience. They may understand where the girls are coming from, and not be explicit, but end of the day they give the message that working is second best.

Long story short, even though I was adamant before seminary that Kolel wasn't for me, I was totally sold by the end. I'm highly academic, intelligent, and like to think I have strong reasoning abilities, but the year has a huge impact!!! I've cooled down over the years, and moved away from the black and white mindset, but it was a very confusing and challenging few years trying to balance all my thoughts after seminary.

I think Ateres/ Meohr/ Darchei Binah are more open, but the other BY seminaries mentioned seem to have this mindset, ime. I wish I knew when I applied that more serious also = more into kolel. Like your daughter, I assumed the more chill seminaries weren't appropriate. I wanted somewhere with serious, intellectual girls. But actually, some of the seminaries known to be more relaxed focus more on a personal development and broad hashkafa than translation skills and academics, which I believe is more impactful long term.

I'd never thought I'd be saying this lol, but perhaps there is a need for a genuinely serious seminary, solid girls, but without the very Chareidi, black and white, mindset. Michalah offers great academics and a broad hashkafa, although I do see it can attract more modern girls.

It's always a tough decision! Good luck to you and your daughter! I hope she can find a place she fits in, makes friends, but can also continue to think for herself and develop her own path and personal connection to HASHEM.

amother

Fri, Dec 25 2020, 8:56 am

amother [ Silver ] wrote:

wow, thank you so much for the time put in to write this. allow me to comment on certain parts before all the kiddies wake up.

reading between the lines, it seems that you're agreeing with what 3 other ladies said yesterday regarding machon raaya. if thats the case, then it lines up with the biggest reason my dd is not interested in them --- they are full, though not exclusively with super high maintenance girls. even the fellow OOT girls that went there were the fancier/cool girls. my dd wont be able to fit it with this crowd nor will they want my dear sweet dd that has a heart of gold.

regarding michala being too modern - I prefer using the term "modern orthodox" instead, as I prefer using no labels when possible. as we're from OOT, I look at MO vs yeshivish as more of a mindset/appearance trait then a frum thing. for example - I have always told my girls, I rather have them marry a boy wearing a white polo shirt, knitted kippah & open toe sandals (on shabbos) who comes to shul on time & doesnt talk while there then a boy with black hat, big peyos, holding a gemara that was late & talked in shul.
despite this my dd just feels mort comfortable around more yeshivish people, probably because the MO girls she knows are less frum (in contrast to dd#2 that has solid frum MO girls as friends and wants to go to michlala for seminary). for example, my dd wears loose fitting clothes, prefers long black skirts even in summer, doesnt wear leggings, dislikes dressing up incl makeup, comes to shul on shabbos morning on time, doesnt have a smart phone though watches occasional movies/reads books/listens to non jewish music. she also enjoys instagram to my extreme distaste.

Kollel push - THIS IS MY BIGGEST FEAR, and my biggest reason not to send her to seminary at all and definitely not to a place like bnos sarah. my dd is sweet/kind hearted and more then a little naive, and because of that more sway-able. so should she fall into the wrong group - oh my. it's interesting to mention how until this yr my dd did not want seminary at all and planned to go to college immed after graduation with plans of law school after.
despite this very real FEAR and understanding that "brain-washing" occurs, she needs to grow and become more independent that only a year away from her parents can give her. IMHO, this is worth the risk both financial and otherwise. (we shouldnt be spending $30k as we're a family that doesnt even do sleep away camps bec of the $$$). sadly, part of this growing process is that dd makes the decision where to go, as long as its not a bad choice Smile

.

it may be true that a more relaxed seminary will focus more hashkafa & personal growth as you say. however for me it is too much of a risk that she may fall in with the wrong crowd and just chill the year out. while dd is a serious/studious/hard worker and wants to be surrounded by like minded individuals that has a chose honors/AP class when possible, she also enjoys lectures & speeches.

GTTP: it is for these reasons and others, how I personally am leaning towards bnos avigayil (from the seminaries ok'd** by my dd). I just wish they had an open house to give me a better idea.
otoh, my dd prefers bnos sarah > maachon raaya > bnos avigayil. the plan is to apply to all 3 and decide once accepted, factoring in tuition costs.

** those that we ruled out - michlala, tehillas, nachlas, ateres, BJJ, bnos chava, chemdas, hadar, seminar, darchei binah, bya, bnos yehudis, mesores rochel and all non bais yaakov seminaries.
some others we still looking into - bnos batsheva, meor, Rinas, Binas, kitov

amother

Ecru

Fri, Dec 25 2020, 9:22 am

If your daughter watches occasional movies, and listens to secular music, (and openly admits to doing so) I would discourage you from Bnos Sarah.

It’s definitely a more intellectual place, and has diversity of thought as a result, but most girls who go there do not do the above and are far from there hashkafically.

I worry that she might feel far from the reality of the girls she encounters and have a hard time relating to them.

If I had to guess, this is probably why your DD principal said Bnos Sarah would probably look askance at also applying to Machon Raaya. It would probably indicate to them that her desire to come to BS is related more to the intellectual aspect than the hashkafa and overall “type.”

Realize that every few years the landscape of seminary changes, and what was true a few years ago (that girls apply to both with no repercussions) may not be true anymore. Best idea is to follow principals advice since they are much more on the pulse of latest seminary “trends.”

amother

Fri, Dec 25 2020, 9:50 am

amother [ Ecru ] wrote:

I agree with you regarding both the seminary & listening to principal, and explained the very same to dd but she feels differently.

the $100-150 bnos sarah application fee is small price to pay to satisfy her. if she gets accepted then can truly decide if she should go there or not. if they chose not to accept her, then so be it.

amother

Teal

Fri, Dec 25 2020, 11:23 am

amother [ Silver ] wrote:

This 100%

Honestly, I think you are getting a distorted picture in your mind of michlalah because of your other daughters friends who are going there. I would say that is less typical of a michlalah girl. How you explain your daughter in detail is the prototype of a michlalah girl.

amother

Aqua

Fri, Dec 25 2020, 11:26 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

FYI, my sister watches movies and listens to secular music, and she is in Bnos Sarah right now. She just doesn't talk about these things in seminary. She was looking to grow, so she went there.

Her plan is to marry a boy who is going to learn for one year. However, she was specifically afraid of going to Bnos Sarah because of the kollel push. Then she heard from her friend who went to Bnos Sarah previously that one of the teachers had told them, "The day that every Bnos Sarah girl marries a learning boy is the day I stop teaching. That should not happen."

I know several extremely solid Bnos Sarah girls who married working boys. They are very frum, but that was their mentality all along, and they stuck to it.

That being said, if your daughter is easily swayed, I'm not sure that Bnos Sarah is the best place for her kollel-wise. My sister and all the girls I know who went to Bnos Sarah and married working boys are very strong-minded and less easily swayed by peer pressure.

I think Bnos Avigayil may be the best fit from the way you describe your daughter.

My sister in Bnos Sarah also applied to Machon Raaya and got in. She chose Bnos Sarah because she didn't like the materialism of MR.

My sister who went to MR also applied and had the opportunity to go to Bnos Sarah and Bnos Avigayil. She didn't want Bnos Avigayil because it was in its first year and she didn't like the idea of the Nevey campus, plus it just didn't appeal to her generally. She chose MR over Bnos Sarah because she felt Bnos Sarah was too yeshivish for her. She went to MR, didn't like it too much because of the materialism, and is now very modern because she got turned off by the MR hashkafos (for example, one teacher told the class that if they didn't marry a boy who would learn for at least 2 years then they would never be able to raise a Torah home). She probably would have been much better off going to Michlalah, but coming from a Bais Yaakov, she chose not to do it. It's a shame.

amother

Oak

Fri, Dec 25 2020, 11:30 am

amother [ Aqua ] wrote:

My sister who went to MR also applied and had the opportunity to go to Bnos Sarah and Bnos Avigayil. She didn't want Bnos Avigayil because it was in its first year and she didn't like the idea of the Nevey campus, plus it just didn't appeal to her generally. She chose MR over Bnos Sarah because she felt Bnos Sarah was too yeshivish for her. She went to MR, didn't like it too much because of the materialism, and is now very modern because she got turned off by the MR hashkafos (for example, one teacher told the class that if they didn't marry a boy who would learn for at least 2 years then they would never be able to raise a Torah home). She probably would have been much better off going to Michlalah, but coming from a Bais Yaakov, she chose not to do it. It's a shame.

Oy. This is sad to hear. Was not my experience at BYMR. My year, they encouraged kollel but definitely didn’t push it. Although some of the staff has changed so that may be why that teacher made that comment.

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