Husbands and sons drunkards? This is Yiddishkeit?

red sea

Mon, Mar 03 2008, 7:27 pm

mumoo wrote:

This from Rabbi Yaakov Howoritz on Purim drinking:

Quote:

for reducing or entirely discouraging recreational/sports activities for normal, healthy teenagers who need exercise so badly. One of the things that simply drive me batty is when parents and/or educators excuse away the hard drinking and smoking by explaining that, “The boys have a brutal schedule and need to blow a little steam.”

My response usually is, “HELLO! Did you ever hear of a basketball?”

gryp

Mon, Mar 03 2008, 9:24 pm

There is a big difference between tipsy, drunk, and stone-drunk. If we don't recognize that right off the bat, this thread is going to be yet another thread of people arguing to no end on different points.

amother

Mon, Mar 03 2008, 9:27 pm

GR wrote:

Are we talking about the same thread? I don't see anybody arguing here.

gryp

Mon, Mar 03 2008, 9:29 pm

Amother, please review your past, present, and future tenses. Rolling Eyes

amother

Mon, Mar 03 2008, 9:31 pm

My point, GR, is that I don't see anything approaching or even nearly approaching any kind of discord or disagreement. So who is talking about possible arguments? I see a lot of nodding and agreeing.

amother

Mon, Mar 03 2008, 9:32 pm

Oops, forgot this. Rolling Eyes

gryp

Tue, Mar 04 2008, 10:56 am

Amother, there is bound to be a multitude of opinions on the subject.

And that was mine. There is a difference between tipsy, drunk, and stoned.

No one holds that the Mitzvah on Purim is to get stone-drunk. Getting tipsy or a bit more that that has too many gray areas, and is very individual- can't make any general statements about that for everyone.

Quote:

but the Rebbe did state limits on drinking...I don't remember how many l'chaims was maximum...3 or 4)

4, mimivan.

amother

Tue, Mar 04 2008, 12:09 pm

Cindy324, sadly many kids have been taken to the hospital on Purim. I haven't heard of any deaths from alcohol poisoning, but I do know know there have been from drunk driving on Purim.

Motek

Tue, Mar 04 2008, 12:13 pm

freidasima wrote:

There are a lot of good Yiddisher Yingerleit who believe that the best way to celebrate Purim and be yotzei "Ad delo yada" is to get drunk.

Correct. It's halacha. See the Chofetz Chaim's "Biur Halacha" where he makes the following points:

1)the Sages instituted drinking on Purim since the miracles of Purim took place with wine

2) we are commanded regarding simcha of taanug, not simcha of wildness and silliness, simcha that leads to love of G-d and thanks for the miracles that He did for us

3) he quotes: since the miracle was with wine, therefore the Sages obligated us to become inebriated or at least to drink more than usual, in order to remember the great miracle

4) someone who knows himself, that by drinking he will not do mitzvos properly such as washing hands, brachos, bentching, davening mincha and maariv, or will behave in a lightminded manner, better he should not get drunk (though he can drink more than usual) and all his deeds should be for the sake of heaven.

(I have heard in the name of Rabbi Yisrael Salanter that one's obligation to drink on Purim is until one passes out, I.e. falls asleep in inebriation, but I don't have a source for this).

Motek

Tue, Mar 04 2008, 12:14 pm

As for drinking to the point of passing out, since you asked about the Lubavitcher Rebbe, here is a story that Elie Wiesel tells that happened to him on Simchas Torah:

"[At m]y first visit to the [the Lubavitcher Rebbe's] court...I had informed him at the outset that I was a Chasid of Vishnitz, not Lubavitch, and that I had no intention of switching allegiance.

'The important thing is to be a chasid,' he replied. 'It matters little whose." .. ..."One year, during Simchas Torah, I visited Lubavitch, as was my custom.

'Welcome,' he said. 'It's nice of a chasid of Vishnitz to come and greet us in Lubavitch. But is this how they celebrate Simchas Torah in Vishnitz?'

'.Rebbe,' I said faintly, 'we are not in Vishnitz, but in Lubavitch'

.Then do as we do in Lubavitch,' he said'

'And what do you do in Lubavitch'

'.In Lubavitch we drink and say lechayim'

'.In Vishnitz, too'

'.Very well. Then say lechayim'

.He handed me a glass filled to the brim with vodka

Rebbe,' I said, 'in Vishnitz a chasid does not drink alone'

.Nor in Lubavitch,' the Rebbe replied. He emptied his glass in one gulp. I followed suit'

.Is one enough in Vishnitz?' the Rebbe asked'

'.In Vishnitz,' I said bravely, 'one is but a drop in the sea'

'.In Lubavitch as well'

.He handed me a second glass and refilled his own. He said lechaim, I replied lechaim, and we emptied our glasses. After all, I had to uphold the honor of Vishnitz. But as I was unaccustomed to drink, I felt my head begin to spin. I was not sure where or who I was, nor why I had come to this place, why I had been drawn into this strange scene. My brain was on fire ' In Lubavitch we do not stop midway,' the Rebbe said. 'We continue. And in Vishnitz?'

'.In Vishnitz, too,' I said, 'we go all the way'

'.The Rebbe struck a solemn pose. He handed me a third glass and refilled his own. My hand trembled; his did not. 'You deserve a brocha,' he said, his face beaming with happiness. 'Name it.

.I wasn't sure what to say. I was, in fact, in a stupor 'Would you like me to bless you so you can begin again?'

....Drunk as I was, I appreciated his wisdom '.Yes, Rebbe,' I said. 'Give me your brocha' He blessed me and downed his vodka. I swallowed mine--and passed out."

from "All Rivers Run to the Sea" by Elie Wiesel, pp.402-4

red sea

Tue, Mar 04 2008, 12:20 pm

Motek wrote:

freidasima wrote:

There are a lot of good Yiddisher Yingerleit who believe that the best way to celebrate Purim and be yotzei "Ad delo yada" is to get drunk.

Motek, are you agreeing or disagreeing?

Motek

Tue, Mar 04 2008, 12:41 pm

Why is this a matter of our personal opinion when the halacha discusses it? I find all the previous comments to be inappropriate since NOT ONE of them quoted what halacha has to say on the matter.

amother

Tue, Mar 04 2008, 12:43 pm

Motek wrote:

Why is this a matter of our personal opinion when the halacha discusses it? I find all the previous comments to be inappropriate since NOT ONE of them quoted what halacha has to say on the matter.

Inappropriate to comment on young men getting drunk until they vomit or pass out? This is acceptable behavior in any circle??

amother

Tue, Mar 04 2008, 12:45 pm

Motek wrote:

As for drinking to the point of passing out, since you asked about the Lubavitcher Rebbe, here is a story that Elie Wiesel tells that happened to him on Simchas Torah: ....

I'm totally missing the point of the story. I mean, it's funny, but I don't get it.

Motek

Tue, Mar 04 2008, 12:48 pm

amother wrote:

Inappropriate to comment on young men getting drunk until they vomit or pass out? This is acceptable behavior in any circle??

The thread began with questions. The questions are about what we think about "ad d'lo yoda."

Quote:

I'm totally missing the point of the story. I mean, it's funny, but I don't get it.

The point? Whatever you like. The reason I posted it is to show that drinking to the point of passing out was, in this case, perpetrated by the Rebbe. Quite obviously, he thought it was the right thing to do.

red sea

Tue, Mar 04 2008, 12:49 pm

Motek wrote:

Why is this a matter of our personal opinion when the halacha discusses it? I find all the previous comments to be inappropriate since NOT ONE of them quoted what halacha has to say on the matter.

I wasnt asking your personal opinion. It is simply not clear from your post (to me) if you quoted something that is supporting the op's idea or sourcing that she is incorrect.

The word "correct" confused me. Are you saying correct to freidasima's idea or to the yiddeshe yungerleit she referred to?

Last edited by red sea on Tue, Mar 04 2008, 12:52 pm; edited 1 time in total

frummom

Tue, Mar 04 2008, 12:50 pm

Quote:

3) he quotes: since the miracle was with wine, therefore the Sages obligated us to become inebriated or at least to drink more than usual, in order to remember the great miracle

4) someone who knows himself, that by drinking he will not do mitzvos properly such as washing hands, brachos, bentching, davening mincha and maariv, or will behave in a lightminded manner, better he should not get drunk (though he can drink more than usual) and all his deeds should be for the sake of heaven.

if we're limiting this discussion to halacha, I don't think it says about drinking anywhere kol hamarbeh harei zeh meshubach. if we're discussion emotion, it's gotten to the point where I really hate purim - and my dh isn't even a drinker. hating purim can't possibly be what hashem wants....

amother

Tue, Mar 04 2008, 12:50 pm

Motek wrote:

Maybe he thought it was okay for him to drink Wiesel under the table but I doubt he would have approved of young men getting so drunk, or fathers doing so in front of their children, or (worst of all) anybody drinking and driving, even on a chag.

I'm assuming that Wiesel enjoyed the Rebbe's company and wanted to tell an amusing anecdote, nothing more. To derive anything halachic from it seems like a stretch.

Motek

Tue, Mar 04 2008, 12:59 pm

red sea wrote:

The word "correct" confused me. Are you saying correct to freidasima's idea or to the yiddeshe yungerleit she referred to?

to the statement that freidasima made about the yungerleit, that the men are correct since it is stated in halacha

Again, this is a halachic issue. Bachurim and men who sincerely want to do what is required of them on Purim, will find out the halacha and follow it. If they are not sincere about their yiddishkeit, they have a problem and it's not a problem that is confined to Purim.

As someone put it - bans on excessive drinking on Purim when there is an obligation to drink?! Where are the bans on excessive drinking not on Purim, like every Shabbos or at simchas?

frummom - the statement is "until he does not know the difference between blessed is Mordechai and cursed is Haman"

amother - obviously the Rebbe was not promoting endangering anyone

red sea

Tue, Mar 04 2008, 1:22 pm

Motek wrote:

freidasima wrote:

There are a lot of good Yiddisher Yingerleit who believe that the best way to celebrate Purim and be yotzei "Ad delo yada" is to get drunk.

thank you for clearing that up Motek. Do you feel the follwing ideas I place below agree with or disagree with the halacha you quoted?

Quote:

Point one- the mitzvah is strictly speaking of wine, all other forms of alcohol are not yotzei.

2- The minimum of the mitzvah is to drink more than usual.

3- The maximum is to get drunk, which also implies more than that is not a better mitzvah but worse.

4- Blood poisoning is past the state of drunk, not a mitzvah, but an aveira to endanger ones health.

5-Puking all over the place goes hand in hand with lightminded manner, in which case the preferable fulfilling of this obligation for a person like such would be to drink more than usual, not to get drunk and would apply to the majority of men these days being most cannot hold wine like 2 russian professors ofd science downing bottle after bottle over a game of chess (just a analogy that popped into my head but dont take it literally)

6-the definition of ad d'lo yada can have one possible meaning to impair your clear thinking enough to intellectually confuse good and bad (think politics these days, quite easy to confuse the two, real easy with a bit more wine than usual, which is possibly why brilliant minds and those whose insides are all the way torah need a bit more alcohol than average frum guy to fill the mitzvah, but those are the ones who coincidentally hold alcohol better)

7- I know there are torah sources stating that alcohol impairs brain development which continues until the age of 21. That said, the lesser shita of more wine than usual, not drunk, should be the preferred mitzvah for those between the ages of 13-21 no matter what.

So whaddya think? Are these points in concurrence with the halachic source you quoted or going against it?