Debt or Public School?

avrahamama

Tue, Jan 05 2021, 5:13 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Thank you for bringing up these points .

Do you believe your path ventured from your parents not being frum or from you going to public high school? What brought you to orthodoxy and how did you re-educate yourself?

It's a miracle that I'm now frum. I wouldn't just rely on a miracle to keep my children frum. I see how quickly things degrade for kids. Especially if their parents aren't as committed.

It took two months of public school for my niece to eat kosher chicken nuggets and then wash it down with chocolate milk.

My mother wanted to keep me in yeshiva but my stepdad didn't want to pay and he also didn't want her to work.

Like I said. It's education and atmosphere. You need both.

How I reeducated myself eventually is not going to take back all the spiritual damage and flashbacks from my secular and somewhat wild past. If you can avoid it. If what's holding you back is money. Then talk to the school and see if you can sort it out.

If you just aren't so committed anyway. That's something for you to explore. But don't just do what's easy and hope that one day things might turn out the way you dream.

So really what are your dreams visions and goals for your familys spiritual future? How do you plan on working towards that?

imorethanamother

Tue, Jan 05 2021, 5:21 pm

avrahamama wrote:

But don't just do what's easy and hope that one day things might turn out the way you dream.

So really what are your dreams visions and goals for your familys spiritual future? How do you plan on working towards that?

I love this. I love what you said. Children are hard work, and no one gets anywhere without putting in time and effort.

Thank you so much for this perspective. It's so important.

imorethanamother

Tue, Jan 05 2021, 5:26 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

I think this takes away from all communities then. Why not fight for better public schools. All children deserve it. Not only the people who can afford it.

You say this without really understanding what you're talking about.

You can't "fight" for better public schools without:
1) giving them millions of dollars to a specific school for specific items, such as supplies, computers, sports equipment. (And then watch a lot of it disappear).
2) somehow being powerful and influential enough to micromanage the hiring process, which is done at the state level. You will have ineffective principals, terrible teachers, and awful coaches, and you cannot control this. This is why charter schools were created - to create more accountability for teachers that public schools don't enforce.
3) You need to be a daily presence in the school. You have to go and see what they need, fight for what you think they're missing, and organize parents to make it happen. And again, rich enough for them to care.

If you aren't willing enough to do any of the above, no one will do it for you.

There's a reason Jews and non-Jews alike have fled the public school system.

imorethanamother

Tue, Jan 05 2021, 5:35 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

I don’t know what to tell you. These things happen in the world. They happen within Jewish schools as well. I don’t think it has to do with being a minority ...

What? No. Don't just dismiss this with a wave of your hand like, "this happens everywhere, even in Jewish schools." It does not. Tell me one Jewish school that had their 7th graders watch Brokeback Mountain. Tell me one Jewish school that orders Domino's Pizza for their Halloween party and serves it, while they watch A Nightmare Before x-mas. I'm not telling you stories that happened to other people, I'm telling you stories that happened to my own child.

If you're the only kid in the class who celebrates Chanukah, and the teacher is completely ignorant as to what that even is, what do you think is going to happen? I'll tell you, because I've seen it. They had my son take home a x-mas tree side by side with a menorah drawing. And they were so proud of themselves, too.

The kids in the non-Autistic classroom got to participate in the x-mas play, complete with baby Yoshke. (One of my friend's kids was asked to sing O' Holy Night in the choir.) Yay public school.

Fight for your kids. If you're not willing to, I wish them luck. Hashem runs the world.

amother

White

Tue, Jan 05 2021, 5:38 pm

imorethanamother wrote:

You say this without really understanding what you're talking about.

There's a reason Jews and non-Jews alike have fled the public school system.

You are generalizing regarding public school systems.

Frum people don't send to even the best public schools.

There are excellent pubic school systems and the parents are generally involved in their individual schools as well as the system itself. They are mostly located in suburbs and areas in which people are willing to support the public schools through property taxes OR they are located in neighborhoods in large metropolitan areas that have affluent vested parents who do lots of things to make the individual school better as well as the school itself drawing from a socio-economic groups that are committed to education and the schools generally have to teach rather than take on a lot of social welfare issues as well.

amother

Linen

Tue, Jan 05 2021, 6:33 pm

Public schools don't have Hashem - at least not openly. In a Jewish school, your children can daven to Hashem and learn Hashem's Torah and how to serve Hashem as Jews. They learn about tzadikim. Education isn't just about getting facts or preparing for a career.
I have relatives who send their children to public school. Their children don't know how to daven and are growing up ignorant of the Torah and it's sad.

imorethanamother

Tue, Jan 05 2021, 6:45 pm

amother [ White ] wrote:

Some of the examples I used were from the Beverly Hills Public School system, widely considered one of the best in the country.

I'm not generalizing. The dominant culture is Christianity, and you can't escape that. Unless, of course, you send to private school. I didn't touch the educational aspect in any of my posts.

amother

Aqua

Tue, Jan 05 2021, 6:45 pm

I'm going to throw another anecdotal story at you.
My grandfather was the Rav of a non frum community. My mother had 1 frum friend growing up.
They sent their oldest to a Jewish school. Turns out he had learning disabilities (not that anyone knew about those back then), and had a miserable experience. He and his (Jewish) wife drive to temple every week and keep kosher style.
My mother was then sent to public school, but her father made sure to learn with her every day. She remained frum and raised a good frum family.
The youngest was also sent to public school, but wasn't taught on his father's knee every day. His son doesn't have a Bris Milah and he didn't know what a Sefer was. His only connection to Judaism is that he still remembers that Challah makes the best french toast.

So is Jewish school a guarantee you'll stay frum and public school a guarantee you'll go off the derech? No. But it does keep the odds of staying affiliated, and definitely helps if there's no firm foundation at home to rely on.

amother

Bronze

Tue, Jan 05 2021, 7:02 pm

Here is my story:
My parents where traditional but my European-born mom who went thru American PS felt it important that her kids get a good Jewish education so they have the choice and education to live as a frum Jew. My secular Israeli dad was fine w PS but went along w my mom.
End of the day all the kids are frum (rw mo to Israeli charedi) and my parents are mo.
My mom was right- she gave us the knowledge and environment to have the choice to be frum.
School was great, what really pushed me along was sleep away camp.
My parents worked hard for their children and definitely sacrificed vacations and the fancier things in life but they would do it again in a heartbeat.

Good chance we wouldn't be remotely religious, even cv"s have married out had we gone to public school and not had that education and environment.

amother

Mint

Tue, Jan 05 2021, 7:29 pm

Hello! Plenty of us BTs, myself included, went to excellent Public Schools from preschool all the way through college.
I can promise you that I would not want that for my kids. I can promise you it would be a huge struggle intellectually, emotionally, socially, etc to raise them and "keep" them frum. Huge exposure to boy girl stuff and drugs and more even in the curriculum!
Does it ever happen? Can it be done?
I don't play those odds. When it comes to frumkeit there are no guarantees and we maximize our children's environment in every way possible.

While there may be reasons to choose public school go in with your eyes open. Especially as kids get older the level of exposure and temptation and even brainwashing is insane. Even in excellent schools. Even with good kids. Not even getting into the gender stuff nowadays and lack of respect masquerading under the guise of "tolerance".

Furthermore, no kid wants to be different. They want to have friends and fit in. The environment definitely influences R"L.

While it might seem doable with little kids it gets worse as they get older and then they typically do not want to make a change or keep up to go back to jewish school.

Very challenging.

lk1234

Tue, Jan 05 2021, 7:39 pm

amother [ Mint ] wrote:

I am truly grateful for your post! I was always so resentful of paying tuition and literally working myself to the bone and I felt the ends don't justify the means. Having this perspective is really eye opening!

amother

Mint

Tue, Jan 05 2021, 7:49 pm

Glad to pay it forward lk

the only extended family who are frum are those who chose to send to jewish orthodox schools

the others hope and pray their kids stay affiliated and jewish identified, date and marry jewish people -- certainly not a given R"L especially when they hear the argument that it is 'racist" not to date somebody due to their religion and so on

have to work super hard constantly to deprogram what the kids would be doing, exposed to, and hearing every day let alone input healthy chinuch

emma07

Tue, Jan 05 2021, 9:22 pm

avrahamama wrote:

sorry but it’s not true!! My kids are all in public not because I can’t afford it but because the education is amazing . We live in one of the best school districts in the country ... it all comes grim the home. I know many people who went to yeshiva and are either not religious anymore to the point of marrying a non Jew or less religious then the were.

amother

Floralwhite

Tue, Jan 05 2021, 9:39 pm

emma07 wrote:

I wish you and your family the best of luck, but the odds are against you.

amother

White

Tue, Jan 05 2021, 9:42 pm

imorethanamother wrote:

Did you miss my statement which said frum people don't send to even the BEST public schools generally

I was responding to the incorrect generalizations about the terrible state of public schools. As I posted, most public schools are fine - especially in wealthy or upper middle class suburbs where people are willing to pay high property taxes and also tend to also support the schools in general. Even metropolitan school districts have good individual schools if parents are sufficiently motivated to find them.

Beverly Hills has a lot of secular Jews attending and is multi-cultural. Religion isn't taught at public schools but parents sending to public schools don't have issues with children being exposed to other cultures and religions.

Now if you want to really tread into dangerous waters, the red states REALLY have Xtian religious stuff going on in terms of Xtian prayers. There have been ACLU cases because of the non-separation of church and state. To my knowledge there are no such issues in the public schools in Beverly Hills, Scarsdale, Skokie, Los Angeles etc.

To some extent, it's a chicken and egg thing. There are neighborhoods where the density of frum Jews would mean that their children would not be the odd person out. It would require one to have explicit religious subjects taught outside of public school but there wouldn't be the issues of social isolation.

emma07

Tue, Jan 05 2021, 9:46 pm

amother [ Floralwhite ] wrote:

I wish you and your family the best of luck, but the odds are against you.

mu kids have been in yeshiva .. there was more cursing etc going in there then in the public schools my kids are in now.. yes I live in a wealthy area were most of the kids in public are Jews .the schools are of in most Jewish holidays .. so I doubt it the odd are against it. It’s all how your raise your kids at home!