Debt or Public School?

amother

Gold

Wed, Jan 06 2021, 11:30 am

Here's the thing: All this fearmongering about public school is absolutely useless to parents with wide exposure to it, especially ones who are more accepting of liberal values. There are many excellent public schools in the US. And let's not kid ourselves there are Jewish schools in this country that do not offer an excellent education.

One of mine goes to public school because it is the place that meets his needs. It is better for him to be there than in a Jewish school that cannot. A school where he is miserable would only harm his love of yiddishkeit.

My other child in Jewish school is there because I *want* her there. Public school cannot teach her things I want her to learn about Judaism. And I don't blame PS for that! It's not its place. PS is for everyone and that means not teaching religion. We need to emphasize the positive aspects of sending to Jewish schools rather than telling parents that their children will be ruined if they don't go.

We also need to acknowledge that some parents cannot afford it and not blame them for this. Our system really is not sustainable and I don't know how to fix it (I do not think vouchers will happen so put that aside).

amother

Brown

Wed, Jan 06 2021, 11:37 am

amother [ Gold ] wrote:

This captures a lot of my thoughts as well, and I have a similar situation where I have one child who was miserable for many reasons in the only orthodox day school locally, and is in public school and much happier. Has it affected dc's level of frumkeit? I can't lie and say it hasn't, but with how miserable they were in the day school, I think it would have been worse to force them to stay there, shielded from some things, which might keep them more strictly observant, etc. and less exposed to some (but not all) secular culture, but at graduation, result in them dumping it all when it's not necessary for school. DC became a bit more modern/liberal in his practice, but keeps halachah, kashrut, shabbos, etc. and is happy being shomer mitzvot now.

I have 2 other children who are in different grades and are in the day school. They are both happy. I think the older would be better off academically, including getting some supports dc needs, if she were in PS, but the "cost"/benefit balance, especially because dc is happy, means dc is best to stay at the day school.

amother

Aubergine

Wed, Jan 06 2021, 11:46 am

HakarasHatov wrote:

I think Cincinnati Day school tries to keep tuition less than the voucher amount, at least thats how it was several years ago

I think you're mistaken. CHDS tuition has been well over the EdChoice amount for as long as I've been here, which is about 7 years. The tuition at Ohr Torah, the other Cincinnati school, is similar to CHDS.

Separately from the EdChoice voucher program, there are childcare vouchers that some income-qualified families receive for preschoolers and toddlers. Those are very generous, IIRC, and probably do cover the full tuition. Maybe that is what you are thinking of.

amother

Brown

Wed, Jan 06 2021, 12:00 pm

amother [ Lilac ] wrote:

I think that if a child needs more support for whatever reason and cannot get it in a Jewish school, by all means do what is best for your child!

But, in my opinion, the cost of tuition is not reason to send a child to public school.

Just my opinion.

If someone doesn't have the money, they don't have the money. If they try from all angles to afford it and not be homeless or without basic food, etc, they just don't have the money.

It's one thing for someone to say they aren't sending to private school "due to money" because they don't want to spend that amount of money. It's another thing for someone to say that aren't sending to private school "due to money" because there isn't enough money period. And when people advise that it can "never" be acceptable to not send to private school, aren't actually offering to offset folks' bills, it sounds tone deaf.

amother

Brown

Wed, Jan 06 2021, 12:14 pm

amother [ Seagreen ] wrote:

I want to chime in, my grandfather had lots of kids and he wanted to send his kids to a jewish school but he couldn't afford it. He was able to work out an arrangement with the school that he would pay off a small amount every month.

It took him years and years to pay off his debts but BH by the time he was niftah last year, he had finished paying it all off.

To him it was a priority and he worked very hard to send all his kids to a jewish school.

I think in OPs case, it is imperative that her dh is willing to do that. If he is not, then I would not recommend OP unilaterally agreeing to that. I don't think hurting shalom bayis for the sake of religious day school is balancing the right things. Everything comes through shalom bayis.

amother

Lilac

Wed, Jan 06 2021, 12:18 pm

amother [ Brown ] wrote:

I hear what you are saying but I do not agree.

I am lucky to be part of a community where it is unheard of for a Jewish child not to attend Jewish private school because of money. I have never heard of it within my community. Jewish kids might attend public school for other reasons, but not money.

If I would be in a situation where schools do, in fact, turn away kids because of the money and I do not have enough to pay I would feel it would be my responsibility to figure out a way to make it happen. Just like the other poster wrote about her grandfather. Sending my children to a Jewish school is an absolute top priority for me.

amother

Pumpkin

Wed, Jan 06 2021, 12:24 pm

When we did not have money for school, and the school seemed uninterested in working with us, I homeschooled for a year.

(It was a disaster, I could not manage to discipline well enough to actually get anything done, whenever I tried to work with one kid certain others would scream and disturb because it wasn't their turn, then whenever we tried to do something together inevitably one or another would have a meltdown and make it impossible to continue. I didn't have an assistant there to remove them... They didn't mind the concept of homeschooling though they missed their friends, but it honestly did not work.)

Then the following summer someone found out and called the school for us, and they decided to work with us after all.

So yes, it happens that schools won't work with you. However, had I been ready to move heaven and earth to make it happen, it would have happened and my kids would not have wasted that year.

For me public school is unthinkable.

amother

Brown

Wed, Jan 06 2021, 12:31 pm

amother [ Lilac ] wrote:

Well, this isn't a unilateral thing for the OP to do. She has a husband as well, who doesn't appear driven to help with this and may not agree to taking on decades of spiraling debt. It's good that you may not have a spouse who disagrees with you, so you can be aligned. Of course one should do their hishtadlus, but sometimes there is nothing else to do. Sometimes there is no one else flesh and blood to ask. Sometimes there is no more money or other yeshua forthcoming from Hashem in the way one is asking for.

Sometimes Hashem's answer for something at some time could be "no".

HakarasHatov

Wed, Jan 06 2021, 1:17 pm

amother [ Aubergine ] wrote:

Thanks for clarifying details

amother

Slateblue

Wed, Jan 06 2021, 2:17 pm

amother [ Taupe ] wrote:

Some of the comments about public school here really make me laugh. Zex ed in kindergarten? Seriously? Are you trying to scare people or do you actually believe that?

FWIW, here's my experience from 5-6 years ago. I went to public school after being bullied in Jewish schools. A sibling who wanted a more academic experience (AP classes) followed me. And we both had very positive experience in our local public school - wonderful education, involved teachers, and a great group of friends. This wasn't any sort of top tier magnet public school, just a standard neighborhood public school. I wouldn't hesitate to send my kids there when the time comes.

There are many good reasons to choose Jewish education, but it's possible to point them out without fear-mongering and/or insulting other people's choices.

How long were you in public school? What grades?

And my child in kindergarten heard the books "my two dads" and "my two moms". I can link the amazon links to these books. They were very confused as to why there wasn't another parent in the picture, but helpfully explained to me that they learned from the teacher that "a dad and a dad can love each other" and " they don't need mommies, because they don't like them."

Don't delude yourself.

imorethanamother

Wed, Jan 06 2021, 2:23 pm

amother [ Gold ] wrote:

We also need to acknowledge that some parents cannot afford it and not blame them for this. Our system really is not sustainable and I don't know how to fix it (I do not think vouchers will happen so put that aside).

Emma07 said that they can afford yeshiva tuition, but she refuses to pay. The OP says that her husband doesn't care if they go to private school, and she doesn't see the point of paying so much money. Did the OP say that she tried to ask the yeshiva for a discount and they refused? No.

Sometimes it's a value system. And for some people on this site, Jewish education isn't worth the fight or the struggle. It's a choice. I don't agree with that choice, but they're allowed to make it.

This disproves your point that this thread is about people with no other choice.

I, personally, had no choice but to send to public school. And I come to this thread armed with real-world knowledge of what that's like in a supposedly religion-free, tolerant, blue state environment. And it's not great. My point is not to make anyone feel bad who's in a similar situation, but to bring reality to the discussion.

imorethanamother

Wed, Jan 06 2021, 2:29 pm

amother [ Brown ] wrote:

Why are we bringing Hashem's decisions into this? The OP didn't ask the yeshiva for a discount, didn't feel that she should work hard for getting her children into school. If there's no hishtadlus put in whatsoever, how on earth do we know what Hashem has decided?

My parents did not take vacations when I was growing up. My mother and father both worked tremendously hard to pay tuition. My mother told us all she davened for was to be able to pay tuition. Is OP davening for yeshiva, or does she, as indicated in her posts, not feel like it's all that important? Let's keep to the matter at hand and leave Hashem's thought process out of it.

But yes, you're right in that many of us are lucky to be on the same page as our spouse.

naturalmom5

Wed, Jan 06 2021, 3:11 pm

This is a very serious discussion.
It comes up often here.

OP.. Im not going to advise you what to do
All Im going to say is the Chinuch in the home is the most important
The neighborhood is also VERY IMPORTANT

If you are spending a fortune on a Jewish school
Scrutinize the parent body and students very thoroughly

My son went to a Lakewood school and had an abysmal experience
Then he went to N HaTorah in Baltimore

He was very miserable there as well
So he went to Digital Harbor where he thrived ...
BH, today he is mid 20s and very sincerely committed to yiddishkeit
Unfortunately the majority of the boys he new in the Jewish HS who stayed there for the entire HS are OTD

amother

Brown

Wed, Jan 06 2021, 4:05 pm

imorethanamother wrote:

There are sweeping statements that some have said that no matter what they "would find a way".

And, I acknowledged, one must do their hishtadlus.

sometimes, there is no other way to find to avoid PS even after hishtadlus. That doesn't make a parent a failure.

If all my posts were read, it would be clear I am advocating for OP to do her hishtadlus and also have bitachon in Hashem that whatever works out from earnest effort is "gam zu l'tova".

I am also of the opinion that it is not so simple to just send to private school when money is an issue. Many times there are solutions. Sometimes there aren't. I don't believe it is a failure if all means that OP can control to find a way to send to day school are exhausted and PS is the only remaining option.

There is a balance between strongly prioritizing something and trusting that, if after making all the efforts one can make in their situation, what seems to be preferred/desired is not possible at this time, then it's not, and that is Hashem's Will too. A parent is not a failure, and bitachon would say that if PS is the result (and, yes, it is sometimes even for those very committed) that it too is from Hashem and is exactly where one needs to be at that moment for whatever reason.

I'm neither saying that it's no big deal to send to PS vs. day school nor am I saying it is a figurative "hill to die on" regarding shalom bayis nor am I saying one is feel hopeless and like a failure if what they are striving for at this moment doesn't come the way they want/hoped.

I'm advocating a balanced view of doing one's best and trusting in the outcome whatever it is, because day school is valuable and should be a priority for good reason and also the complicated situations Hashem places us in may result in atypical results and one shouldn't feel like a failure or like Hashem doesn't care. On the contrary, Hashem guides everyone's footsteps and we cannot always know why some things may not work out the way we think they need to or should.