Kollel/marrying learners

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Forum -> Chinuch, Education & Schooling

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amother

Sun, Jan 10 2021, 1:42 pm

This week there was a question in the shidduch forum about pushing kollel lifestyle on high school and seminary girls. I was surprised at the responses and want to bring the conversation here.

This is my understanding. Originally there were boys who wanted to be full time learners or even just learn until they get married and there were barely any girls that would marry them. Then girls started getting a Bais Yaakov education (at least In New York) and they taught the girls to appreciate learning boys. Times have changed. My opinion is that today we have enough learners. What we are missing are mentchen. We are missing boys that are emotionally healthy, that are grounded, that are ehrlich and yarei shamayaim, that are responsible. The girls are still being taught to marry long time learners, except that they aren't really ready to buy only second hand clothing and live in a tiny apartment. The chinuch isn't matching up. I see girls coming from families where the parents are working full time, Americanized, leading lavish lifestyles and sending to Yeshivish schools and the girls are grappling with these ideals that are being taught but don't really know how to internalize them or eat them. I think the system is broken and I don't think anybody cares, not even the parents. From the boys side there needs to be more emphasis on middos and being healthy and grounded, less emphasis on becoming the next Rosh Yeshivah. In girls schools the emphasis needs to be similary, healthy, grounded, appreciation for having less, living within your means. Of course we want to teach the girls to appreciate Torah. There are many ways to do that. Just learning Chumash every day instills in the girls the Chashivus Hatorah. No need to actively encourage them to marry boys who are planning to learn or never disturb your husband when he is learning. If they came from this type of home they will have gotten it by osmosis. If they have good Shalom Bayis and are coming from a Bais Yaakov school they will have learned enough to appreciate their husband being Koveya Itim. Seriously, let's stop with all this excessive ideology. I wish I could get this message through to the high schools and seminaries.

allthingsblue

Sun, Jan 10 2021, 1:45 pm

I fully agree.

amother

Sun, Jan 10 2021, 1:48 pm

allthingsblue wrote:

I fully agree.

I'm happy to see that. I feel like an Island. What can we do about this issue? Why don't the Mechanchim and Mechanchos see this? What do you do if you want your kid to be in a Yeshivish high school or sem? Are there no options? Why are so many parents ok with this?

amother

Floralwhite

Sun, Jan 10 2021, 1:50 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Many of the people who teach in these schools are living the kollel lifestyle, especially the Israeli sems. It is a lifestyle that works for them. So it is not surprising they promote it.

amother

Beige

Sun, Jan 10 2021, 1:53 pm

I agree with you about teaching the boys to be mentchen.
However, I am from the UK, and we were never taught to marry learner's. Never ever. We were taught to respect our husbands and to instil emunah in our homes, but never that we must marry a learner.
But, my husband is neither a learner, nor a mentch.

amother

Silver

Sun, Jan 10 2021, 1:55 pm

You seem to have a bone to pick with kollel people.
I'm not sure why kollel boys can't be " boys that are emotionally healthy, that are grounded, that are ehrlich and yarei shamayaim, that are responsible."
In fact, most of them are. And any that aren't, are because of their own issue, unconnected to kollel.

amother

Sun, Jan 10 2021, 1:57 pm

amother [ Beige ] wrote:

I can only talk for the Bais Yaakov system here in New York. That is very interesting and nice to hear (the part that they don't push girls to marry learners. Sorry about your husband)

amother

Lemon

Sun, Jan 10 2021, 1:57 pm

amother [ Beige ] wrote:

I think it depends, I have friends from the UK and my inlaws are there, some of them are really pushed to be a Kollel wife especially if you are in some areas of Prestwich or Gateshead or going to the Gateshead sem (old mostly). I'm in EU btw (you guys aren't anymore Sad

)

amother

Sun, Jan 10 2021, 2:01 pm

amother [ Silver ] wrote:

Not at all. I have a brother who is learning full time. He was created to sit and learn. I have an uncle that is still in learning. Both grandfathers learend/worked in Klei Kodesh. My brothers are all Rebbeim. They love it and are great at what they do. Their wives are superwoman who work full time. I have something against pushing an agenda on kids that isn't neccessarily right for them, while neglecting to teach other things. And yes, there is a dearth today of healthy, balanced, ehrliche ppl. I also taught in a high school, not Hebrew. I didn't like what I saw. That's all I'm going to say.

amother

Beige

Sun, Jan 10 2021, 2:05 pm

amother [ Lemon ] wrote:

)

Of my friends who went to gateshead old sem, I don't think any has married a real learner.

I think what is boils down to is this,
if a girl grew up in a Torah home where the father learned a lot, she will want a learner. Or, that is just the boy that her father will look out for her.

If the boys father is learning, he is more likely to stay in learning. Also because he doesn't know anything else and has no skills and no family business to join.

And yes, there will be the exceptions, so feel free to post about your sister in laws second cousins nephew whose father is a millionaire, but he is sitting and learning. But maybe that is because his father sends him a fat paycheck every month so he can continue warming the benches at his local kollel??

And, don't you notice that all the maggidei shiur, or rosh yeshiva are from choshuv families? Not the son of the local plumber??

Kinor Dovid

Sun, Jan 10 2021, 2:09 pm

What bothers me most is that many of the children (of working people as well) are growing up like orphans. Tatty is never home. Mommy is also hardly home between all her jobs and when she is , she’s very busy and distracted juggling all her duties and phone calls.
The children are the ones paying the price.
Personally I think raising children and learning Torah are the most important.
Every couple has to figure out how to achieve those two things to the best of their ability while still paying their mortgage and the answer will be different for every couple.

allthingsblue

Sun, Jan 10 2021, 2:09 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

My children are young but I think Ner Israel (Baltimore) and maybe Chofetz Chaim as well do promote your derech. My husband and I talk about certain ideas and behave in certain ways that we hope our children will follow.

allthingsblue

Sun, Jan 10 2021, 2:10 pm

amother [ Cerulean ] wrote:

What bothers me most is that many of the children are growing up like orphans. Tatty is never home. Mommy is also hardly home between all her jobs and when she is she’s very busy and distracted juggling all her duties and phone calls.
The children are the ones paying the price.
Personally I think raising children and learning Torah are the most important.
Every couple has to figure out how to achieve those two things to the best of their ability while still paying their mortgage and the answer will be different for every couple.

Huh? My friends with husbands in learning have their husbands home a lot more during child-awake hours than my working husband. Morning carpools, afternoon carpools...

amother

Lemon

Sun, Jan 10 2021, 2:28 pm

amother [ Beige ] wrote:

My SIL is a Kollel wife, and however, her husband's family really wants him to shteig more. But my SIL comes from a poor family and bit dysfunctional however when it was dysfunctional she was too young to get any of that. Basically, my inlaws can't afford to pay them and they can't stand on their own feet without support. My inlaws can't pay the mortgage of their house anymore but my mil insists on having a son-in-law who learns because that is what she thinks people admire more. Basically when my husband gets a promotion on his job, they are mildly happy but when he has a siyum they find it amazing. It is crazy then that someone who has the money can become a better learner and stheigh and someone else needs to get to work asap when his family grows.
That is the other side of the so admired kollel life.

About the choshuv families... I know a few people who are from choshuv family, my MIL is a part of a well-known family in Manchester/Gateshead. Some of them became talmidei chachamim but most of them became later also people who need to have a job. There is
nothing wrong being a son of the plumber given that the chofetz chaim had an own store. He would now in some yeshivish areas be considered as ''balebatesh'' maybe? Or a balebatesh who still learns? Lots of the talmidei chachamim were people who hold minimal jobs. There is nothing wrong wtih that. My husband is balebatesh he earns the money and he learns the fact he never been on a kollel doesn't make him ''less''' it just makes him someone who is not made of learning all day he is more a man who likes to learn 2 days in a week. It wouldn't kill him to learn more but that is not his personality. The truth is I learn way more than him but that is not admired, better my husband could be a kollel husband xD

Edit: what always surprised me were that there are some chosuv boys who have outstanding yichus and bla bla bla, they will have “teffelin dates” with less frum girls.

amother

Denim

Sun, Jan 10 2021, 3:46 pm

I went to a bais yaakov and 100 percent agree with op. Many girls and boys feel pushed wether actually pushed or just in an unrealistic idealistic place after sem etc. into a lifestyle that they are not so well suited for so they want a higher standard of living than they can afford. It becomes even harder as the kids get older. Even affording the basics such as housing car tuition and babysitting is a huge struggle for many families. I wish we still had the yissachar zevulan system.

amother

Lavender

Sun, Jan 10 2021, 3:58 pm

The chassidim have not brought into this system. It’s understood that the men will go out to work and have a shiur at night. They don’t preach this nonsense in their schools. Think before you turn up your nose at the chassidim next time lol

amother

Floralwhite

Sun, Jan 10 2021, 4:07 pm

amother [ Lavender ] wrote:

Are you sure this is still the case?
Based on many threads here it certainly sounds like more and more chassidim are starting off their marriages in kollel/yeshiva.
And who are you accusing of turning up their noses at chassidim, exactly?

rae

Sun, Jan 10 2021, 4:09 pm

I think there are more and more frum bais Yaakov girls who are interested in marrying frum working boys. However, the world being what it is, it is very hard for a Yeshiva boy to leave the framework of Yeshiva and still fully hold on to the Yeshiva lifestyle. I’ve seen it time and time again that girls are open to the idea, even welcome it, start dating and realize the boys are not on level with their ideals and hopes of how they want their home run. They quickly switch to dating only learners.
Starting marriage in Yeshiva framework usually means one is still under the guidance of a rebbe. Still in a spiritually healthy place. It’s easier to establish a firm foundation that way.
Most girls (and boys) are not ready to live on less. But that’s why their husbands leave learning after a year or two.
In a way working boys are held to a higher standard than learning boys. If a 23 year old is learning, there is usually no expectation of what job he could do in the future. Vs a 23 year old working boy needs to have an education or a solid career job to make the cut for most girls that would consider them.

amother

Denim

Sun, Jan 10 2021, 4:10 pm

allthingsblue wrote:

Chofetz chaim encourages kollel strongly. After that they encourage the boys to take rebbe jobs.

amother

Lavender

Sun, Jan 10 2021, 4:23 pm

amother [ Floralwhite ] wrote:

I never said that no chassidim are in kollel. There are some that definitely learn especially the first year or two when they are still so young. But the long term kollel lifestyle is not preached in the chassidish schools and isn’t common. At least in the large Jewish communities in NY and NJ most of your blue collar workers like plumbers and electricians are the chassidim. This kind of work isn’t “beneath” them. As for turning up their noses I’m addressing any of those that turn up your noses or say things like maybe it’s a chassidish thing. You know who you are.

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