S/o school acceptance- academic standards

amother

Mustard

Mon, Jan 25 2021, 10:22 am

OP - I also have a son who BH loves to learn and excels at it. I live OOT so am not as familiar with the politics in Lakewood, but when we were applying to Mesivtas we did apply only to the best ones. No one told us not to, so it could be that this attitude has not yet reached our neck of the woods (and I hope it never does), but to me it sounds like those that are saying you shouldn't send to a "top" school are just jealous. As a parent of a son who is in such a school, I would never discourage anyone from sending if that is the best thing for their child.

BTW, we have no yichus or connections and our older son went to the mainstream school in-town, which is at a much lower level. We do for each child what makes sense for them.

amother

Magenta

Mon, Jan 25 2021, 10:32 am

I think your child should absolutely go to a school where he will be challenged.
I bet you will get a different response from people if you say that you are looking into the top schools you are looking into and throw in another name or 2 from a “regular school”

It is no different than a person saying that they are applying to only Harvard, Yale, and MIT.
You would think they were a arrogant snob. If they say they they are applying there, but also to Rutgers and UMD, you would say they have reaches and safety schools and can dream and see what happens.

Send him where he will be academically challenged and thrive. Clearly children go to all these schools. People are off-put the you are only applying to these and that you are confident that this is where he belongs. He does. BUT, you might need to be less upfront about it. Either don’t say where he is applying, round out the list, or be like a duck and don’t care what people’s reactions are.

amother

Tan

Mon, Jan 25 2021, 10:33 am

From the way you're describing your son, I don't know why you would think it's a problem to send to a top mesivta. Please do! The problem people are talking about is when they push their sons - who are smart but not on the level you are describing - to a yeshivah with a very high level of learning, intense pressure to learn non-stop, etc. and many get burnt out quickly. This is obviously not the case here.

Just to point out, though, that the top yeshivos are not just tops academically, there is a pressure to learn lots of hours even during lunch, supper, etc. Keep an eye out for that and advocate for your son if you think it's too much, that's all.

BTW I have friends who send to all these "elite" yeshivos and they are not shy at all about telling everyone where their sons are learning. Humility is only for the people on the bottom, I guess.

amother

Jetblack

Mon, Jan 25 2021, 11:09 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

This is a spin-off of the school acceptance conversations.
I've been mulling this one for a while.
I want to clarify that I'm talking ONLY about high school. Primarily boys yeshivos, and some girls.
Do you think schools should or shouldn't be allowed to have a minimum standard for acceptance, not depending on family type, just students brains.
There's a lot of conversation about the importance of mainstreaming and having yeshivos and schools that have lower and higher academics.
But such a model, while possibly beneficial for less academically inclined, can really be problematic for the academically inclined.

My 8th grade son is top of his class. But he barely tries, is barely challenged, and has been complaining since 3rd grade how boring school is. Teachers give him busy work to keep him quiet- copy the mishna, do 4 times the amount of multiplication problems.
He's excitedly looking forward to trying to go to a "top" Mesivta. Top, not in the sense of "top families" but top in the sense of all highly academic, smart boys.
However, when he tells people that he's applying to certain places, we get criticized for being snobs, for being elitist, that he should go to different places to be a "good influence" or "good chavrusa" to boys who may be struggling.
I'm interested in thoughts.
Please be nice.
For the record, our parents are BT, we totally don't care about families and such, but we do think our son would benefit from an "elite place".

I totally agree, my son is the same. I know for a fact that "struggling boys" from his school are not interested in school work. No judgment there bit I hate when good students are used as tools to help weak students. They want to meet their own goals and not just be there for the weak ones.

amother

Jetblack

Mon, Jan 25 2021, 11:15 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

I agree that that's problematic.
And I see that too.
But I see high schools and mesivtas geared towards A students, B students, C students.
My son is a A+ student.
I could (and probably should) send him to an A+ place.
But we don't appreciate being called snobs and Baalei Gaiva.
And my son has spent years sleeping in class, unchallenged. Having to dumb himself down with chavrusos.
He's craving chavrusos that provide mental gymnastics for him, Rebbis that teach him material he doesn't know, and work that actually challenges him to think, learn, grow.

I think all this is a good thing. But it's politically and socially incorrect.
Anyone else?

You've got to realize that when you send to the school for top learners, his and your environment will slightly change. People who call you snobs don't understand learning and don't walk in your son's shoes.
You will meet other parents who are exactly like you - dealig with giftes kids - and you will feel differently.

SixOfWands

Mon, Jan 25 2021, 11:23 am

I've said it before and I'll say it again. I'm horrified by what seems to be the recent spate of anti-intellectualism in frum society.

OF COURSE children who are academically advanced should be in schools and classes that can meet their needs by offering a more challening curriculum. Just as children who are less academically inclined should be in schools and classes that offer the support they need.

Ideally that can be offered in a single school, as many children excel in some areas, but are more average (or challenged) in others.

But please, do what is right for YOUR child. Other parents will do what is right for their kids.

amother

Pewter

Mon, Jan 25 2021, 11:37 am

The issue I have is how it often works in practice--schools don't want to be "less" and parents don't want to be seen to send to a lesser school. So it becomes a rat race for some schools. It doesn't serve anyone well.

It's obviously not possible to accommodate everyone in a small mesivta format. But I think in schools with parallel classes it's best to have a range of abilities, especially as children may not be equally good in all subjects. I have one child who is very strong at math, for example, but struggles with English due to a learning disability. (He is younger so it's hard to say exactly how it will go for him in Hebrew subjects as they get more difficult.)

amother

Yellow

Mon, Jan 25 2021, 11:57 am

It is really hard for an intellectually gifted person to be in classes with others who are not on his or her intellectual level. It can actually cause the child to under-perform and have behavioral and learning issues because they are not challenged.

I suffered in elementary school because I was so far ahead of the other children but I flourished when I went to a school with other girls who were my intellectual equal. It is also so much better to be among other children who are at your intellectual level as some of my friends who were smart suffered in regular schools because they didn't quite fit in.

Ignore anyone who says you owe it to others to hide your child's light - do what is best for him so that he can be challenged and flourished.