Is dropping community externals considered lowering standard

amother

Babyblue

Sun, Feb 14 2021, 1:46 am

amother [ Jetblack ] wrote:

People who always wear long sleeves and stockings would not consider wearing short sleeves or no socks in the very hot summer.
Would you consider lowering your standard in the heat? Some communities are ok with short sleeves and no stockings, but depends on what is done by you. Why do you think it’s ok for your husband? That is part of his mesorah and what is considered the standard in his community.

Thank you for demonstrating precisely what is wrong with this picture - which was the point OP was trying to make.

Short sleeves / long sleeves is related to halacha. Shtreimel and bekitches are related to an arbitrary dress code decided by human beings for a certain period of time.

When you play around with halacha, then its fair to call the behavior 'lowering your standards'. But by toying with a dress code that is not related to halacha in any sense of the word, has nothing to do with standards.

There is a bigger problem though in this picture. Replacing the essence of yiddishkeit with externals, such as a dress code, only devalues yiddishkeit. A shtreimel on the head or boots on the feet is not what defines someones yiddishkeit, and connection to the Torah. It's a sad world where such things do define your yiddishkeit.

amother

Apricot

Sun, Feb 14 2021, 1:47 am

Proudly Right wrote:

Actually, interestingly dh mentioned to me that when the Satmar Rebbe (Wburg) visited our city, he spoke about women walking out of the house wearing only a turban and ponjelo (robe). He explained as it should be only worn at home. On the street a woman should walk around the way s'past for a Yiddishe Tochter.. (for those who are familiar with the culture and shprach Very Happy

)

I am not part of the community and it's always been a source of amazement to me that women would walk around outside in pajamas.

Chickensoupprof

Sun, Feb 14 2021, 2:48 am

If your levush defines your yiddishkeit then yeah not using ur shtreimel is lowering it. DH spend his high school years in north Miami Beach and went to a yeshiva high school, he had to wear a black hat. I need to tell u my DH has really bad Hyperhidrosis.... then his hatbox got stolen when he was 18 in the beis medrash he never worn a black hat since, he wears a black kippa (not velvet) and jeans instead the yeshivish levush he wore as a teen. My MIL is basically secretly wanting him to wear his tzittzis out and have a black hat and no jeans during the week (dh wears a suit on Shabbos). Sometimes it is better for a person to stop wearing some things dh has hyperhidrosis he drips even when it’s snowing...

amother

Sun, Feb 14 2021, 4:15 am

amother [ Jetblack ] wrote:

Would you consider lowering your standard in the heat? Some communities are ok with short sleeves and no stockings, but depends on what is done by you. Why do you think it’s ok for your husband? That is part of his mesorah and what is considered the standard in his community.

Why it's ok to temporarily remove his shtreimel? Um, because it's not halacha?

There is no mesorah in my husband's family to wear shtreimels. My FIL started wearing a bit before DH was born.

And just to clarify, I didn't encourage DH to stop wearing it forever, just then when it was hot. I'm shocked that people consider it lowering standards.

amother

Navy

Sun, Feb 14 2021, 7:09 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

I think people are confused with taking it off temporarily and taking it off permanently.
Where I live, it is very normal to see people without their shtreimels taking walks etc. and I live in a very Chassidish area.
I think those responding that it's lowering standards think that he's taking it off permanently, otherwise I don't understand the responses either.

amother

Linen

Sun, Feb 14 2021, 7:45 am

Starting to dress more modern- yes that's a lowering of standards. I don't mean from a white shirt to a blue shirt. Starting to dress in a tshirt and jeans- there is halacha about not dressing like nonJews or following nonJewish fashion.

Temporarily taking off a hat- come on, of course not. It's ridiculous to force someone to wear something on their head that they don't want to.

PinkFridge

Sun, Feb 14 2021, 8:05 am

OP, I only read the first page.
There might be a case for him to wear it to his parents just for kibud av. Also, if you're eating there, some people are makpid to wear a hat while bensching, so there's that too.

I'm not even addressing the whole what are they worried about, that once it this it'll be that until who knows what. On the most basic level, this is an opportunity for honoring his parents. Does this mean he has to wear it all the time, even if just taking a walk around the block not to parents? Not necessarily.

amother

Apricot

Sun, Feb 14 2021, 8:15 am

amother [ Linen ] wrote:

Wearing a business suit is dressing like non-Jews. Dressing like a Polish nobleman is dressing like non-Jews. The only question is what year you stop the clock when you imitate your surroundings.

I don't know too many men walking around in long flowing robes these days, even though that's authentic Jewish clothing.

There's a uniform to signal who is in and who is out. Again, it's social rather than halachic.

sub

Sun, Feb 14 2021, 8:18 am

[quote="amother [ Navy ]"]I think people are confused with taking it off temporarily and taking it off permanently.
Where I live, it is very normal to see people without their shtreimels taking walks etc. and I live in a very Chassidish area.
I think those responding that it's lowering standards think that he's taking it off permanently, otherwise I don't understand the responses either.[/quote]
Yup. The answers here seem to be for those who are changing their levush.

amother

Linen

Sun, Feb 14 2021, 8:36 am

amother [ Apricot ] wrote:

Note the word "modern."
It is halacha not to imitate the non Jews in this way.
If a Rebbe decided that levush is appropriate for his followers, then you and I can't say it's chukas hagoy or for social acceptance. A minhag is strong, even if it's external.
And different than taking off a hat or jacket because it's sweltering outside. Forcing someone to be uncomfortable like that crosses personal boundaries IMO.

amother

Jetblack

Sun, Feb 14 2021, 8:52 am

In chassidish circles it is not acceptable to wear short sleeves and no stockings. But in other communities it is ok. Is it Halacha or not?? Yes there are some people that lower their standards over time. People who I know who’s mesorah was always to wear stocking find it ok going without because people in the community do that. Wearing a streimel is the accepted dress code in certain communities. Yes I do agree there is a difference if one takes it off while taking a walk in the heat or all the time. Unfortunately what we see happening is that each generation drops 1-2 things and moving further away from their menorah and how their grandparents were.
I will add that there are many who are way frummer and chassidish than their grandparents as well.

PinkFridge

Sun, Feb 14 2021, 9:13 am

amother [ Jetblack ] wrote:

Their survivor grandparents might not have been in full levush and might have even had a TV. But if we would have the bitachon they had in their little fingers, we'd be lucky.

I know, this isn't a blanket statement, but I'm sure it's speaking to a lot of people. To the 3rd or 4th generation Americans here, the grands or greats who didn't cover their hair, who had TVs, but were moser nefesh for Shabbos, and enthusiastically sent their kids to day schools...if we would have the bitachon etc.

amother

Sun, Feb 14 2021, 9:44 am

amother [ Jetblack ] wrote:

Wearing a streimel is the accepted dress code in certain communities.

What do you mean by community? Chassidus?

Because I don't think anyone needs to wear a shtreimel just cos some men wear it where they live.

dancingqueen

Sun, Feb 14 2021, 10:26 am

I never really got the anti denim thing. I mean, to each their own, but outfits worn by polish noblemen and ribbed sets are no more inherently Jewish than jeans. In fact if anything jeans are more Jewish, having been invented by Levi Strauss. 😁

dancingqueen

Sun, Feb 14 2021, 10:27 am

amother [ Apricot ] wrote:

I am not part of the community and it's always been a source of amazement to me that women would walk around outside in pajamas.

Meh, in a post 2020 world everyone walks around in pajamas. I mean, loungewear.

moonstone

Sun, Feb 14 2021, 11:30 am

dancingqueen wrote:

I was literally about to post this very same comment! The ban on denim is ridiculous. It's more modest than other types of clothing, for one thing. It's a type of material, for crying out loud, thicker than many other types of material. This whole "we can't wear anything non-Jews wore first" makes no sense. I'd guess that non-jews wore most types of slacks, shirts, and skirts first (and what about high-heeled women's shoes?) . That doesn't leave much "permitted" clothing if you strictly follow that rule.