Do frum ppl not value having a "cute" home?

thunderstorm

Mon, Mar 08 2021, 9:22 am

For me it comes down to the fact that we don’t have all Saturday to work on our landscaping and upkeep of our property like my non Jewish neighbors do. Sunday’s are an extremely busy day for me, so that’s out of the question too. When I didn’t work, I was able to be the one focused on the exterior of our home making sure it looked just so and I spent many hours a week doing just that. But once I started working it became impossible.
The non Jewish neighbors on my block all have one to two kids and no tuitions to pay. They had more money to use to keep the house and property looking well maintained and manicured.
The more kids, the more mess . It’s a fact. Some people just spend lots of time with the upkeep so that there is no mess. But if you have two parents working full time, squeezing by financially on the basics there nobody there to be able to fill in the extra time to do all the extra work it entails.
I also think that as far as taste and detail go, the frum homes are beautifully decorated for the most part and are also very clean (at least indoors). You will always find exceptions.

amother

Smokey

Mon, Mar 08 2021, 9:55 am

amother [ Ruby ] wrote:

I think that the responses are a reflection of the posters location and/or culture.

In a nice suburban OOT community often the non-Jewish homes are less cluttered and definitely have nice lawns. Growing up OOT it was so normal to see our neighbors gardening and tending to their lawns pretty often. While the frum people also had lawns, they either had a company upkeep it periodically or mowed it themselves to keep it nice, nothing fancy. In general oot, where there is less of a focus on gashmius, people tend to care less about their lawns looking, to quote another poster, "magazine worthy".

Vs when frum people live among lower class or younger, apartment renters, the frum houses and yards probably look nicer. I now live in Brooklyn in a lower class area, pretty much only the frum houses look decent, the rest are pretty run down.

But that is not comparing apples to apples. An apartment house is maintained by the landlord.

Are there lower class residential areas in Brooklyn where frum people live. I don't live in Brooklyn but I thought real estate prices for housing in frum neighborhoods (as well as just in general) were extremely high so what is a "lower class" neighborhood?

Middle class secular people (of whatever religion, background etc) tend to have fairly tidy exteriors in terms of front lawns wherever they live because middle class people of every background want to be viewed as respectable and have standards so they aren't considered to be trashy by their neighbors. People don't take kindly to a neighbor with a bunch of junk cars on their lawn to cite a stereotypical example. Many suburban communities have HOA which regulate how you keep up your exterior and will fine you if you don't mow the lawn or otherwise have an untidy look.

There isn't enough front lawn in most of the Brooklyn neighborhoods I am familiar with to have much upkeep. LOL

Growing up in Midwood everyone had a gardener come to mow the little patch of lawn but my grandmother enjoyed selecting the tulips, crocuses and other bulbs which she would plant each year. I don't know whether she actually planted them but she did enjoy her indoor plants very much so I suspect that she also enjoyed watching the outside bulbs grow. She was an inveterate snipper of plant shoots if she felt she could get away with it. LOL

None of the front "lawns" were horticultural fantasies but they all looked neat and very respectable whether they belong to Jewish or Italian families.

amother

Natural

Mon, Mar 08 2021, 9:58 am

Op, I know what you mean, and what you mean by "cute." And I think you are referring to the outside of the house more than be the inside...All the reasons you wrote are true, and especially in large frum centers in the East Coast, the mentality stems from the NY, very urban type of living, where people don't have space or yards, so maintaining curbside appeal never became a value. We're all mostly descended from those original NY Jews that arrived as refugees to this country, when preserving our people was the focus, and the exterior appearance of a home was just not thought of at all. Nowadays, that's starting to change, with even drummer types paying for landscaping, etc, if they can afford it.

cookies6

Mon, Mar 08 2021, 10:18 am

I didn't read the entire thread but I think I know what she means. I have noticed as well that, within the same neighborhood (not comparing inner city neighborhoods to places where frum people live) it seems like the frum families don't care as much about the presentation of their homes. In particular with lawn maintenance - they don't weed, rake/blow leaves, trim bushes the same way a lot of secular people do. And they also don't put away outdoor toys and chairs contributing to the messy look. There is a certain pride of ownership that others have that seems to be lacking in a lot of frum families.

amother

Pink

Mon, Mar 08 2021, 11:15 am

amother [ Blush ] wrote:

I do think for the most part frum people are less concerned with their lawns or their cars. The inside of their home though they usually do take pride in. I guess we’re not so concerned with externals.

Keeping your lawn in good shape is a way of showing respect to the neighbors, who have to look at it all day. You don't have to have a professional landscape designer, but if the outside looks like a dump and the inside looks like a castle, the homeowner is sending a message. It doesn't cost anything to put the bikes and garbage away.

amother

Slategray

Mon, Mar 08 2021, 11:47 am

I live in a suburban OOT community and moved to a street with only a few frum families. The street has a nicer, more well-kept look to it. My dh and I think it would be a big chillul hashem for us to keep our house the way other frum people do.

We make sure our lawn is mowed and all grass clippings are clean up. Our landscaping is very simple but not an overgrown mess. We make sure any garbage that lands on our property is thrown away. We don't leave toys and lawn chairs strewn about.

Some of the other families do not do the same and its embarrassing, quite honestly. Those houses stick out like a sore thumb on our street.

seven-up

Mon, Mar 08 2021, 11:47 am

This topic kind of confuses me. Maybe it's because I grew up NY and when I got married I lived in Eretz Yisroel for almost 15 years and got to see both ends of the spectrum. In Eretz Yisroel it's frowned upon to live with excessive gashmius and excessive there is what we consider normal in the US. So when my mother in law for example gave us a new chandelier when we were in Eretz Yisroel we were in a quandary. According to American standards it was normal to have one and we were considered weird for having a light bulb hanging over the dining room table. But in Kiryat Sefer we would stand out and be labeled as empty Americans. My mother in law would never understand why we couldn't hang it and every time she came my husband and I held the same discussion of having it hung just for the month so she would be happy and think we were "with it". We never actually did but it was a sore topic. Now that we moved back (almost 10 years ago) we have that chandelier hanging and since it's normal, there's no stigma attached. So I get that America is not holding where Eretz Yisroel is in terms of what is considered over the top, but I find the opposite approach here. If you don't live "over the top" according to American standards, you are not considered to be normal or mainstream aka "with it". I don't subscribe to running a messy home, inside or outside, or to having lots of clutter, but why the emphasis on everything being the latest and finest from decor to clothing and everything in between. There's a pressure here to live according to a certain standard in matters related to externals in order to be considered mainstream frum or "heimish" while in Eretz Yisroel it's the other way. In fact my older children went through the Israeli school system where they would often hear about the hashkafic ramifications to living ostentatiously for example it could take away from one's olam haba or cause ayin hara. But here I've never heard that mentioned, at least not in my kids schools, I don't know about other cities. I do live out of town so it's easier for us because although we have the full spectrum of yiddishkeit and with that the full gamut of gashmius related hashkafos, we don't have the pressure, it's everyone does what they hold is right for them and maybe that's why it's not mentioned. So that's why I'm confused by this whole topic because based on my experiences, living in a "cute" (according to OP I take this to mean stylish, updated, magazine worthy) home is not an aspiration or focus of a frum yid even if we maintain a clean, clutter free, roomy home. I would think this is a more "non jewish" attitude. In my town the fancier, nicer homes are in the suburbs where the non frum live, so it's associated more with that lifestyle. This is not meant as an attack to those who subscribe to living with an emphasis on the externals, I'm just confused why not only is it considered better to live like that but it's considered lichatchila.

amother

Babyblue

Mon, Mar 08 2021, 11:56 am

amother [ Pink ] wrote:

I agree. But good shape means reasonably neat, not stylish or "cute." No garbage, mow the lawn, follow the local regulations, that's it. There are unreasonable neighbors out there whose expectations go way beyond that. They are not numerous usually, but they are very vocal and prolific.

Just ask local police in any UMC area what kinds of calls they get and they will give you an earful of the kind of ridiculous complaints they have to deal with that have no basis in local codes.

amother

Honeydew

Mon, Mar 08 2021, 12:25 pm

Op, you used the word generalize have you ever looked at other homes aside your own?
Where you getting these assumptions from?
I deal with real estate and have seen so many non jewish homes that are cluttered and uncared for and the opposite is true for the frum jewish women who all take such pride in their home its unreal!
Ofcoarse there will always be an exception where there are women with poor housekeeping skills, perhaps you can take a course or get a home organizer to come in and help you.
Then you can apologize for making such a general statement to so many frum women who strive to keep their homes spic and span.

HeartyAppetite

Mon, Mar 08 2021, 1:45 pm

amother [ Goldenrod ] wrote:

Not to go off on a tangent, but I grew up in such a chassidishe home that looked like a museum. And I'll just say that it is far from a positive thing. I'm making sure that is not happening in my home.

And to comment to your other post - warm/welcoming and museum-like are contradictions.

I meant a museum compared to the non Jewish homes here. I didn’t mean a literal museum.
The non Jews in my area have a bunch of families living in one apartment. The place is usually cluttered up with mismatched furniture.

Compared to the homes of my family and neighbors our homes are clean and organized with nice furniture.
Of course you can see that a family lives in it.

Last edited by HeartyAppetite on Mon, Mar 08 2021, 1:53 pm; edited 1 time in total

amother

Amber

Mon, Mar 08 2021, 2:55 pm

I'll bite - maybe this is something similar: When I made Aliyah to Israel and moved to a DL yishuv with single family homes, I noticed and still notice after all these years that Israelis are generally not much into gardening or keeping the outside of their houses in good shape. I'm from Europe and non-Jews there put a lot of personal effort into having nice and decorative gardens and freshly painted houses and fences. Even if they are poor or outdated on the inside.
Not so here - a lot of people (not all, there are exceptions) either have nothing but dried out weeds and maybe a desiccated straggely tree or two on their plot, or if they are neater, they cover the whole thing with concrete and synthetic lawn and plunk down one decorative flower pot in the middle and that's it. Houses have paint peeling or else are half under construction for years. Fences and doors are ugly.
But inside the houses it is totally different: top notch renovated, sparkling clean, expensive furniture, magnificient kitchens. That contrast always startles me a bit. Outside - meh. Inside - wow.
It's a different order of priority.
Having the inside nice for family and guests comes way before gardening and looking good from the street (personally, I find that difficult, having grown up in a different world).

naturalmom5

Mon, Mar 08 2021, 4:01 pm

[quote="amother [ Jetblack ]"]Do you have children, OP?
Children are a messy, and expensive, proposition. They depreciate a house faster than anything other than arson or an act of G-d.
Frum people tend to have more children than secular people with comparable incomes. Ergo: a. they have less disposable income to spend on their houses and b. they have more youngsters making more messes. Mystery solved.

What's a "cute" house? I don't associate cleanliness and neatness with cuteness. Do you, perhaps, mean "stylish" "fashionable" or "trendy"? See above. Different priorities.

Here's another area where frum people differ from secular people and nonJews: hachnassat orchim. Most frum people will sink more resources into items and features that make it possible for them to have overnight guests than into features that will their home more stylish.

I'll never forget a visit I made to a very wealthy nonOrthodox home. It was gorgeous, all black and white polished marble and carpets that you sank into up to your ankles, and HUGE. Every child had his or her own bedroom with bath en suite, master suite had a bathroom bigger than my living room, living room you could hold a wedding in. There was a live-in maid whose room had its own kitchenette and bathroom ensuite. There were more bathrooms than people, a room just for watching TV, a breakfast room and a sewing room and a music room --and ZERO accommodations for overnight guests. Zero. No sleeper couch in the living room, no high-risers or bunk beds in the kids' rooms, no easy chair that converts to a bed in the music room. They couldn't even have Grandma stay overnight after the Seder because there were no spare beds. None. Granny had to stay in a hotel and be driven there after the Seder ended. Since the owner of this house was an architect who designed the house himself, the lack of guest accommodations was clearly a very deliberate choice.

Meanwhile,I have yet to find a frum family that doesn't make some sort of accommodations for an overnight guest, even if all it is is a sleeping bag on the floor or a foldout ottoman in the living room.[/quote][b]

I have..

Too many times.,

I was locked out of my house, and they would rather send their son over to be mehallel Shabbos and get my door ooen than let me and my husband sit on their couch till Shabbos was over

Another time, our house was freezing because we ran out of oil. We ate by someone Shabbos and told them our predicament . Bottom line , if you arent a blood relative your out of luck

Conversely, my husband has many childhood non J friends that are very hospitable