Brain playing the vaccine what if game ...

amother

Olive

Thu, Apr 01 2021, 3:18 pm

little neshamala wrote:

The 2 people I spoke about earlier-the young, previously healthy ones with new neurological and cardiac issues, that their neurologist/cardiologist told them to expect to be lifelong....they both meet your criteria of having had mild covid.

The cardiac issues one: had a fever for a few days and a very bad cough, but never felt short of breath or had any other symptoms. She was not even bedridden, just stayed home.

The neurological issues one: had round the clock fevers for over 5 days, but no cough, no short of breath, only other symptom was body aches and weakness. She "just stayed home in pajamas and watched tv all day, just felt like had the flu".

I know, because I asked both specifically.

I'm sorry to hear that. This is still anecdotal though. My own anecdotal experience is that almost everyone I know had covid, mostly back last March, and I don't know a single person who had a mild case and now is a long-hauler. Neither my experience nor yours demonstrates much, because we don't know the overall percentages.

If someone can link a peer-reviewed study on the percentage of MILD sufferers of covid who become long-haulers, I would have a look.

amother

Orchid

Thu, Apr 01 2021, 3:33 pm

I haven’t read the whole thread because my brain can’t cope with the continuous ridiculousness of some claims, but just to put it out there;

mRNA has been trialled on humans since 2006. Yes obviously not as a covid vaccine but for other reasons. They would have seen any serious side effects from the technology a long time ago.

Secondly, the conspiracy theory that it may have an effect fertility, originated from a post (which was quickly removed) by an ex- Pfizer employee. They hadn’t worked in the company for the last 10 years but claimed they were an employee and of course that got people worried. Since then, conspiracy theorists took this and blew it up. Of course- it’s something that touches on peoples heart strings and no one can completely dispel the theory right now because the vaccine is too new. However, there is no reason to think that it could C”V cause any problems. And as said above, mRNA has been trialled for years and if there was an effect on fertility, they would know it by now. As for the spike protein, they are no similar enough to that in the placenta to cause damage. And if it could, then any pregnant women who caught covid would have lost the pregnancy which of course bH does not happen.

600 million doses of Covid vaccines have been given. That’s a great thing.

amother

Olive

Thu, Apr 01 2021, 5:21 pm

amother [ Wine ] wrote:

NO, JUST NO!

Your analogy of cars is not the right one. Rather lets compare it seat belts. You are aware that seat belts have taken some lives too. People haven't been able to get out of their burning or water filled cars in time, because they were trapped by the seat belts. Should we run with the headline that seat belts kill people, or should we run with the headline that seat belts save lives?

There is no such thing as a perfect scenario. Everything in life has a risk to it. The risks always got to be weighed in context. Making a risk, and a miniscule one at that, your primary focus, and ignoring all the rest, is just wrong. It's even more wrong, when you attempt to mislead people with it.

Standard medical practice is, and has always been that purely PREVENTIVE health measures should not pose a risk of death. There is no justification for disregarding this established practice.

Let's take another analogy. Antibiotics kill about 500 people per year, due to an allergic response to them. Should the focus on antibiotics be about these 500 'crashes', or should the focus be on the wonderful 'convenience' of saving millions of lives each year. You can point out the miniscule risk so people can have awareness and take precautions, but to villify antibiotics because of the miniscule risk is ridiculous.

Antibiotics, like all medications, are studied for several years before approved for market. This is so that safety and risks can be fully evaluated and understood. This means, necessarily, that in the interim, before the drugs are approved, some people will die as they will not have the opportunity to benefit from it.

It's the standard practice by which medication approval is based. And it's why the FDA has not yet approved the vaccines.

Similarly, vaccine has provided us with an enormous 'convenience' - the millions and millions of saved lives and the lifelong disabilities it has avoided for millions. Yes, it isn't perfect, and there have been some injuries (some 'crashes). But these injuries are miniscule in number compared to the successes, just like antibiotics. In this case, we already have 564 million dosages administered (and rising), and the number of injuries are negligible. That alone speaks to its safety.

No, the numbers are nowhere near comparable to people who die of allergic reactions from antibiotics. The numbers are nowhere near comparable to people who die from the flu vaccine, since that seems to be the comparison everyone loves to make. Currently standing at 400x as many covid vaccine deaths as flu vaccine deaths. But the real question is why take any risk if you are in a low risk category and early treatments are far safer?

And as for long term, you need to view the full context, not just run with a tiny part in the equation. This is the current situation:

On one side of the equation we have:
- Covid 6x more deadly than the flu (as reported today);
This is a highly misleading claim as it averages people of all ages and of all different degrees of
health. We all know that a healthy 30 year old's risk is different from that of a 75 year old with
high blood pressure.
- significant number of long haulers even among the younger crowd
Also misleading because the overwhelming majority did NOT receive early out-patient treatment.
- significant number of people who don't respond to the current treatment protocols
Studies demonstrate otherwise. Ivermectin has been shown to be more than 90% effective when used prophylactically.
- pregnant people suffering severe consequences
Without early outpatient treatment. No one is suggesting that the effective way to deal with covid is to ignore all symptoms until you need to inpatient care.
- a vaccine that has demonstrated short term safety
Pregnant people were not the focus of the trials. Sick people with comorbidities were not. If you read the trials and the Dec. 17 FDA hearings, they actually refer to the fact that the trials were intended for healthy people in the very titles. Elderly people were not the focus of the trials. A tiny percentage of elderly people were included. The number was not statistically significant enough to infer that the vaccine is safe and effective on elderly people with co-morbidities.
- a vaccine with the only new contents being the mRNA a known substance to the body - a substance that your body produces in the millions every split second
It's a new technology that was never used before en masse on healthy people. It's completely disingenuous to imply that it's safety profile has been established. It has not.
- a vaccine that its new contents, the mRNA, is degraded within hours
Also unclear, as it trains the body to continue launching the immune attack; that's the whole point. That's how the immunity is intended to last. Evidence of the lipid nanoparticles encapsulating the mRNA has been found to cross the fetal barrier and to cross the blood brain barrier. No, we don't know what the full implications are of this, but there is speculation that this is why so many people have reported severe neurological reactions after the vaccine.
- a vaccine that only introduces one protein of an entire virus, instead of exposing us to the full amount if the virus hits you
An element of a protein also implicated in Alzheimer's disease, some cancers and other immune diseases. Much more comprehensive studies are needed.
- a debunked theory about an infertility link. if anything CV itself has a greater potential to cause infertility in men (CV can affect testicles).
With respect to infertility in females, I'm more concerned about potential fetal toxicity risks which haven't been fully explored. No long-term human studies were performed. Animal studies were very limited. And to be precise, there was no "debunking" as that can only happen in a lab or properly constructed trial. And that didn't happen.

But for males, many boys have been reporting to their roshei Yeshiva in confidence of "problems with peru u'rvu" ever since getting the vaccine. R' Wachtfogel, for instance, has said this publicly and, because of this, has stated his opposition to the vaccine. Anecdotal reports aren't science but it seems reckless, at best, to simply disregard these concerns when they have not been comprehensively studied (goes back to lack of FDA approval).
- a political environment that's restrictive and probably won't let up till everyone is vaccinated.
This is highly unethical before all safety data is fully understood. It also poses potential for abuse and government tyranny.

On the other side we have:
- a miniscule risk of a long term effect, with not even a possible suggestion of what that concern can be.
The risk is being vastly understated here. How can it be called miniscule when we don't even know what it is at this point? We do know that there are now more covid vaccine deaths reported to VAERS than from all vaccines in the past ten years combined.

VAERS had to hire an outside company to keep up with the deluge of reports and is still several weeks behind updating. And that's just the U.S. And doesn't include severe adverse reactions that don't result in death.

The real question, why is any risk justified when early, outpatient treatment is likely more effective and far safer than the vaccines?

Now, everyone is entitled to make a decision for themselves. But no one is entitled to play up their own fears and make that out to be the capital factor in this situation. Fear mongering and false hype is just wrong. It's main purpose is just to get people to be in the same camp like you so you can feel better about your decision, because the larger the number in your group the better you'll feel about your decision.

Agree. But we disagree about what has been the objects of the fear-mongering and false hype.

And no, I feel 100% comfortable with my decision. I don't appreciate the mind-reading and I don't need to convince anyone of anything in order to feel better about my personal choices. Side point, my kids are all fully vaxed and I intend to continue that. But I am truly scared for the danger that people are unknowingly and needlessly subjecting themselves to.

amother

Olive

Thu, Apr 01 2021, 5:24 pm

amother [ Orchid ] wrote:

For cancer patients, mostly. That's a different calculus.

amother

Sapphire

Thu, Apr 01 2021, 6:05 pm

amother [ Olive ] wrote:

For cancer patients, mostly. That's a different calculus.

This mrna tech is great for many genetic diseases that previously had no help options. The risks associated are weighed against a certain outcome. Here we speak of the risks weighed against otherwise health.

There are a growing number of Rabbanim changing their opinions on covid vax as more information comes to light, before they said take it and now not to. No, I will not put names. You should listen to your own Rav.

amother

Maroon

Thu, Apr 01 2021, 6:33 pm

amother [ Sapphire ] wrote:

?
This is not a religious thing. Talk to your dr and do your research, unless your rav has professional expertise in this.
And if your daughter is an adult, let her make her own adult decision by talking to a dr or someone in the field and doing her research.

amother

Olive

Thu, Apr 01 2021, 7:04 pm

amother [ Maroon ] wrote:

If it's a halachic issue, then we ask a shaila.

Many rabbonim have issued a psak halacha---this is different than asking for guidance---that one should not get the vaccine. The reason is that we are not permitted to undertake knowingly dangerous activities that can harm our bodies.

curlyhead

Thu, Apr 01 2021, 7:31 pm

There are risks both ways! Ultimately Hashem runs the world and if he wants something to happen it will happen either way. I have learned this the hard way. We were all freaked out about Covid and followed all the rules and in the end my child ended up on a respirator and passed away nothing to do with covid.
If G-d forbid Hashem wants something bad to happen it will happen either way. Hashem runs the world. Covid or the vaccine is just a method which can Chas vsholom cause illness, long term complications, etc. Make a decision and put yourself in Hashem's hand and Daven for the best outcome!

Last edited by curlyhead on Thu, Apr 01 2021, 7:42 pm; edited 1 time in total

amother

Maroon

Thu, Apr 01 2021, 7:39 pm

amother [ Olive ] wrote:

I also ask if it’s a halachik issue. Therefore, I will not ask about the vaccine.

amother

Olive

Thu, Apr 01 2021, 7:46 pm

amother [ Maroon ] wrote:

I also ask if it’s a halachik issue. Therefore, I will not ask about the vaccine.

The fact that many rabbonim are issuing psakim based on the potential risks, should give pause to anyone dismissing the risks out of hand.

amother

Maroon

Thu, Apr 01 2021, 7:47 pm

amother [ Olive ] wrote:

The fact that many rabbonim are issuing psakim based on the potential risks, should give pause to anyone dismissing the risks out of hand.

If they were medical professional, then yes I agree

amother

Sapphire

Thu, Apr 01 2021, 8:05 pm

amother [ Maroon ] wrote:

I also ask if it’s a halachik issue. Therefore, I will not ask about the vaccine.

Elective invasive medical to a healthy person is a halachic shaila. Always has been. There are halachos about this.

amother

Thu, Apr 01 2021, 8:08 pm

op here- wow! I totally did not think my post would have this much of a reaction- was just trying to work out my own made up conspiracy theories that run rampant in my head- I did even know there was something actually out there are fertility issues- it was my own gnawing worry. I truly appreciate everyone's opinions and thank you for those sharing their first hand experiences. It takes a lot of courage.

amother

Maroon

Thu, Apr 01 2021, 8:08 pm

amother [ Sapphire ] wrote:

Elective invasive medical to a healthy person is a halachic shaila. Always has been. There are halachos about this.

You can’t pick and choose which vaccine is elective and invasive. If you’re part of the crowd where all vaccines are assur, then yeah of course it becomes a shaila.

amother

Maroon

Thu, Apr 01 2021, 8:09 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Lol it’s not even your own made up conspiracy theory! Lucky for you, it’s been theorized and debunked Smile

DrMom

Thu, Apr 01 2021, 8:10 pm

amother [ Olive ] wrote:

The fact that many rabbonim are issuing psakim based on the potential risks, should give pause to anyone dismissing the risks out of hand.

Here in Israel, many poskim ordered yeshivas to open during the pandemic, which lead to a huge covid wave as most of these bochurim got sick and then infected their families.

I think I'll leave medical questions to medical professionals.

amother

Coral

Thu, Apr 01 2021, 8:13 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

From what I am hearing the vaccine will be open to the next phase- pretty much anyone over 16. DD is 20 and there is an unrealistic part of me that is worried that- what if the science is wrong- what if this vaccine messes with reproduction. etc. DH (a doctor) thinks everyone should get the vaccine as being protected is way better than getting sick. I still worry. (yes, I was vaccinated). Am I out of my mind?

I am in my late 20s and my parents are both doctors and they both are against me getting the vaccine. They think the risk benefit calculation doesn't make sense for someone my age. My mother specifically thinks that until they won't let me do something (fly, go into the mall) that I should hold off as long as possible.

I ended up signing up to get the J&J vaccine. I am not comfortable with the risk of the mRNA, it is just too uncertain and the technology hasn't been around long enough to understand the long-term effects. The J&J is an adenovirus vaccine, which is the technology used to make a lot of vaccines that have been tested for years. Maybe getting the J&J instead of Pfizer and Moderna would make you feel better? Personally, I plan to only give my kids an adenovirus vaccine when they become available for young children. I am not comfortable giving them something that may have long-term side effects.

amother

Sapphire

Thu, Apr 01 2021, 8:30 pm

amother [ Maroon ] wrote:

You can’t pick and choose which vaccine is elective and invasive. If you’re part of the crowd where all vaccines are assur, then yeah of course it becomes a shaila.

All are elective and all are invasive. They all need a go ahead.

Standardly, the regulars are known. It is widely paskened to be permissible on the condition you are not damaged from them. For example, even if the Dr. says you can give again to a kid who had ana or seizure from them, halacha may not permit you to.

This is not one of that crowd. It is not a same category item. The only same is the mode of consumption, you inject it. The stuff inside is very different. Some Rabbis pulled their go ahead after seeing certain things unfold. We are not allowed to participate if there is not a reassurance of safety.

Mashal is like this, life support halachos.

You do not have to put someone on life support to save them. You even can let the meds in an iv keeping someone alive run out. Because you are permitted to leave things in Hashems hands via teva. However, you are never permitted to remove life support tubes or shut off power because that is you causing the damage.

It is forbidden to cause damages by your own hands but it is fine to let teva happen.

Therefore halacha forbids parcipitation of healthy individuals in experimental trials unless and until no eyebrows are raised to their possible safety.

Why you think there is no halacha in medicine, I do not know. But do know that not all Rabbis are in agreement and not all Dr's and scientists are in agreement.

amother

Olive

Thu, Apr 01 2021, 8:41 pm

amother [ Maroon ] wrote:

You can’t pick and choose which vaccine is elective and invasive. If you’re part of the crowd where all vaccines are assur, then yeah of course it becomes a shaila.

Sure you can. Based on more severe and more numerous reported adverse events and lack of comprehensive testing. One Rav stated that no vaccine should be taken before it has been on the market a certain number of years. Sounds reasonable to me.

amother

Purple

Thu, Apr 01 2021, 8:46 pm

amother [ Olive ] wrote:

I keep thinking of all the ads will be seeing in a few years if you’ve been affected by the covid vaccine please call....