Men don't have to make kiddush before eating?

amother

Fri, Apr 02 2021, 12:14 am

Just wondering if there's a source for this. We grew up with a father who took on major chumras but also used religious abuse as a form of control. Once we got older, we had to start separating what was actual halacha from chumra from total mishugas.

On Friday nights, a while after candle lighting but often before he went to maariv, our father would have some food. We weren't allowed to eat because we had to wait for kiddush (which would be after shul), but my father would say that the boys and men didn't have to wait for kiddush before eating. Has anyone heard of this? Is there a source for why men/boys could eat before kiddush but women/girls can't?

ra_mom

Fri, Apr 02 2021, 12:18 am

If your father didn't go to shul right away, likely he was chassidish and his minyan didn't start until around three quarters of an hour after shabbos. If that's the case, all of you could still eat. Not just the men.
I'm sorry you were subjected to this. And in the name of religion, no less. Hug

amother

Silver

Fri, Apr 02 2021, 12:21 am

It is forbidden for anyone to eat once shabbos comes in before hearing kiddush (explanation from OU including bdieved situations): https://outorah.org/p/35577/

There's even more leniency for women to eat/drink before kiddush.

I'm sorry your father misled you like this

amother

Cerise

Fri, Apr 02 2021, 12:21 am

Women may not eat after candle lighting before kiddush. (Under regular circumstances.) Men may eat till around shekiya when they take shabbos upon themselves. Men may drive and do any malacha till around shkiya. Women may not do any malacha from candle lighting.

amother

Cerise

Fri, Apr 02 2021, 12:29 am

ra_mom wrote:

I can think of one chassidus that davens late. DH davens at the zman, he leaves before I light, and my father davens 15 minutes after the zman. He leaves at candlelighting.

amother

Fri, Apr 02 2021, 12:32 am

We weren't chassidish. And my mother always lit like at almost the eighteenth minute after shkiah. To those who hold that men can eat until shkiah, does it also extend well after the eighteen minutes? I'm trying to figure out what his own rationale was.

amother

Scarlet

Fri, Apr 02 2021, 12:35 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Has anyone heard of this?

I have... from my abusive father who did the same. Then he went to shul on a full belly and had no reason to rush home. I remember the hunger pangs every Friday night.

amother

Scarlet

Fri, Apr 02 2021, 12:37 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

I'm trying to figure out what his own rationale was.

Really? You know the answer. His rationale was that he wanted to eat. And food tasted better with a side dish of control.

Elfrida

Fri, Apr 02 2021, 12:37 am

The only difference that I can think of is that men and women accept Shabbos at different time. Women when they light candles, men normally at shkiyah. Once they have accepted Shabbos neither may eat until kiddush.

Incidentally, it is far less common, but one can make kiddush and eat mezonot on Friday night, just the same as Shabbos morning. Sometimes useful if the meal is likely to be significantly delayed.

amother

Cerise

Fri, Apr 02 2021, 12:39 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Your mother lit the candles 18 minutes after shkiya? That's probably an hour after the zman shabbos. It's the first time I'm hearing such a thing. Are you sure about this?
Men take shabbos upon themselves later than women do but I never heard of women lighting candles 18 minutes after shkiya.

Elfrida

Fri, Apr 02 2021, 12:42 am

amother [ Cerise ] wrote:

I think this was a mistake and she meant to write 18 minutes before shkiyah. This is the commonly accepted time for candle lighting in most of the world.

amother

Fri, Apr 02 2021, 12:46 am

Elfrida wrote:

I think this was a mistake and she meant to write 18 minutes before shkiyah. This is the commonly accepted time for candle lighting in most of the world.

I meant like whenever candlelighting was, within eighteen minutes after that.

amother

Fri, Apr 02 2021, 12:49 am

amother [ Scarlet ] wrote:

Really? You know the answer. His rationale was that he wanted to eat. And food tasted better with a side dish of control.

I think despite his controlling nature, he would have had a rationale for himself. Like if he heard that some chassidim do that, I could easily see him rationalizing it even though it wasn't his minhag. But if chassidim only did it for the eighteen minutes after candlelighting, that doesn't make sense.

Zehava

Fri, Apr 02 2021, 1:07 am

I totally get the need to try to delve into an abusers mind and figure out what the heck they were thinking. But it’s an exercise in futility. Their minds are twisted and work completely differently than regular empathic human beings.
Focus on your healing. It’s a long road but so worth it.

amother

Brown

Fri, Apr 02 2021, 5:18 am

If he held of Rabbeinu Taam as the official "night," then it could be he held that we light and take in Shabbos at shkia, but can do things that are not straight out melacha until a later time when bein hashmashos really comes in (which I think is like 45 minutes AFTER the official shkiya on the calendar, which is 18 minutes AFTER the time written to light candles). Women and children (girls only? I'm not sure) would still take it in Shabbos completely when lighting. My husband does this, and not because he's controlling, but because he holds very strongly of rabbeinu taam and this makes sense from that perspective.

amother

Periwinkle

Fri, Apr 02 2021, 6:51 am

Elfrida wrote:

I often do this when I'm pregnant.
Make kiddush right after shkiyah and then I can eat. (I can't go long without eating)

amother

Floralwhite

Fri, Apr 02 2021, 8:10 am

Can you ask him?
My religious abusive father was hard on himself and us. We couldn’t eat on shabbos morning before he came home from shul, couldn’t carry on shabbos even with an eruv.... etc. I can still feel the tension he permeated in the house. He’s not alive anymore, died very early. Surprisingly going to my mothers house these days is tension free.
Op, I really don’t think it’s allowed for anyone to eat past shkiah. It’s possible that there’s an extra 12 minutes after the 18 minutes which is 1/2 hour after candle lighting but not more than that. I also don’t think that girls have to take on shabbos when their mothers light. They can also use the 18 minutes if they need to.
(Her father probably davened mincha earlier in the day and didn’t need to rush to shul)

amother

Crimson

Fri, Apr 02 2021, 9:18 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

I have heard of this. Women can't eat once they are mekabel shabbos with candle lighting. Men can't eat once bein hashmashos pass or they were mekabel shabbos during davening at mizmor shir.