How to treat an orphan/story in Ami Living

amother

Mon, Apr 05 2021, 12:50 am

My feeling was that the mother went way overboard, sheltering her daughter to an unreasonable degree. It's clear the school felt the daughter needed therapy, but the mother bristled at the very idea.

When you read a story from one perspective, they usually come off sounding "right" in a conflict. In this case, it came through that she was over the top.

I didn't want to judge before reading responses here because I b"H have never been in that situation. But I hear from other orphans that this is over the top.

I may be wrong but I think the crux of the issur of not paining a widow is that since she has no husband, people can take advantage of her. And a yasom is vulnerable because he doesn't have a father to protect him. So we are3nt supposed to insult him, say insensitive things etc. I don't think the idea is to rearrange a curriculum so that the concept of death and bereavemnet should never be discussed, because maybe the child will find it too close to home. Or to never discuss a father and tiptoe around the subject whenever the girl is there. Is that really what the Torah is warning us about??

I'm not sure...but this story rubbed me the wrong way.

Mommyg8

Mon, Apr 05 2021, 12:54 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

I think the issue is that the girl was put on the spot, demanding that she discuss a personal topic. The topic can be discussed, but that doesn't mean that the girl has to bare her soul to the class. The teacher can call on someone else. Or she can be forewarned that this topic is being discussed so that she can be excused for that period.

Honestly I don't see a downside in going a bit overboard in protecting a yesoma's feelings.

amother

Tangerine

Mon, Apr 05 2021, 1:20 am

My friend lost her dh when her children were very young.
As her chikdren got older It bothered her that things were called father and son melava Malka, avos u’banim,ma Nish Tana is taught as ‘Tata leiben’
On tatta leiben the school did research and was told it was mesorah and they should teach it. At that point the mother met with a grief social worker and rav together. The discussion was that the world can’t change fully. Terms and sayings will be used through out their life. To protect them now when young will just make it harder later on. It’s best to address head on and learn to deal with it and address and discuss as it comes.
(But I do think discussing death and bereavement with a child missing a parent in the classroom is outside of normally daily interactions)

ora_43

Mon, Apr 05 2021, 6:10 am

I did not read the story.

I think it depends on what exactly happened in the class. Like, was the issue that during the discussion other girls said insensitive things that hurt the girl's feelings? Or did the girl feel put on the spot, like she had to discuss her own experience?

Or did the mother feel like the entire topic should be off the table?

In general, some people react to grief/loss/trauma by being very sensitive to any mention of anything related to the trauma, ever - while others davka want to talk about it. It can be very hard to find a balance. Personally, I know there are people who I couldn't have a conversation with about things we've both been through; their reaction and sensitivities are just too different from mine.

I do think that a conversation about grief in school, if handled well, is a good idea. Every single child in that classroom either had lost someone they love, or will lose someone they love. For many of them, talking about it is a good thing.

But students should be given a choice to opt out and do alternative schoolwork instead. All students should be given that option, because you never know exactly what someone's been through, or what they'll be sensitive to. You'll have one student who lost a parent last year and wants to talk about bereavement, and one who lost an uncle four years ago and can't even hear the word "death" without tearing up. People just react so, so differently. The teacher shouldn't even try to guess who needs a heads up and who doesn't - everyone should be warned in advance and given the option to opt out.

As for the reactions - the mother pushed it too far in demanding that this topic not even be taught in school; the principal/teacher should have apologized sooner and offered some kind of compromise (eg in the future, students will be warned ahead of time).

amother

Sapphire

Mon, Apr 05 2021, 7:16 am

Mommyg8 wrote:

It's an extremely serious Torah prohibition to cause pain to an orphan.

Maybe the world won't always tiptoe around her, but school is supposed to be a safe place. Plus there's no reason to be the cause of pain just because there will be more pain down the road. That literally does not make sense.

This exactly.

I did not read article and perhaps the mother went extreme, buy it is schools job to be careful and keep child safe emotionally. People are only human and mess up but a sincere apology shows you care and instills confidence the school will be sensitive in the future.

Also, these conversations are the worst in school because the teen knows everyone is looking at them and whispering about them afterward.

Said as a yesomah herself and now mother of teens.....the classmates are definitely paying attention.

amother

Floralwhite

Mon, Apr 05 2021, 7:45 am

amother [ Scarlet ] wrote:

I read it.
The 17 year old needs therapy to get over it. Life isn't going to always be so nice and dandy with people always being careful to not mention death and grieving. She needs to get over it and the sooner the better.

My thoughts exactly after I read it. She's 17, of course she can and will always be sad over her loss but she needs therapy to get through the grief, so she can handle these discussions coming up in life.

watergirl

Mon, Apr 05 2021, 8:19 am

Mommyg8 wrote:

SO MUCH THIS.

We are talking about a REAL issur d'Oraisa here! It is up to no one to decide for the girl that she will have to deal with it eventually and she needs to just suck it up.

I wish there was as much emphasis put on teaching things that are literally issurim d'oraisa as opposed to random "sensitivity" things. Imagine what our kehillos would be like if we were as sensitive to the widow, orphan, and convert as we were to other things you read on here which are observed strictly as a "sensitivity".

tweek

Mon, Apr 05 2021, 8:25 am

I work in a high school with teens. The bottom line is that the only ones who can decide this is the girl and her mother.

It infuriates me when others tell people who have experienced loss how they are supposed to feel and what they are supposed to do. The job of the school is to make the girl feel safe and reduce any uncomfortable situations.

Whether additional time or therapy is needed can be determined separately. They may both be perfectly healthy otherwise and this may just be their "thing".

Quite frankly, I was horrified by some reactions both in the article and on this thread. Once the girl expressed being uncomfortable, there should be no questions asked. In such situations, she calls the shots. Anyone who doesn't understand that, should not be in chinuch.

amother

Mon, Apr 05 2021, 8:36 am

Just to clarify for those who did not read the story:
After the mom brought the situatuon up to the principal, the school offered the girl the opportunity to be excused from the discussion.
But the mother was not happy with that compromise. She felt it was embarrassing to her daughter to have to walk out of a class discussion.
The only solution she felt was viable was removing the whole subject for everyone.

watergirl

Mon, Apr 05 2021, 8:38 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Seeing as this is a real issur, the best solution would have been for the principal and the mother to go together to the posek of the school and ask what the right thing for the daughter to do would be.

amother

Blush

Mon, Apr 05 2021, 9:17 am

amother [ Seashell ] wrote:

We had a curriculum about grief and death. Our teacher made sure to talk about it when the yesoma in our class was out.

I don't know if she was given a heads up, but to spring it on her was extremely insensitive.

This is a good point. I don’t think the curriculum should have been changed and the other kids be deprived of the lesson. But they could have given her a heads up and allowed her to decide if she wants to be there.

amother

Blush

Mon, Apr 05 2021, 9:18 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

I’m sure they could have found a way for her to discreetly miss the lesson.

imaima

Mon, Apr 05 2021, 9:24 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

There was a story in the Ami Living about a single mom (widow) who had a 17 year old daughter who called her from school crying that her literature teacher led a conversation about grief and bereavment.

The mom was incensed because she felt it was insensitive and inexcusable for the teacher to make a yesoma go through that. The girl was 5 when her father died.

The mom went to pick her up immediately and the girl stayed home from school the following day as well.

She wrote how each year she made sure to have the school inform the teachers of her daughters status as an orphan, so she found it upsetting that every year, teachers would forget and do insensitive things like this. Another teacher had asked her daughter to prepare a passuk which spoke about not causing pain to a widow and orphan to teach to the class. The girl was mortified to have to teach that passuk. Mom acknowledges that it was a mistake on the teacher's part, since she assigned the pessukim randomly, but she feels it's inexusable to have been so insensitive to have not realized.

The mother reached out to the principal and head of school. They basically defended the teacher for having lead the discussion on death and grief, and said that the girl was allowed to be excused from the discussion if she didnt feel comfortable staying. Mom was outraged that the school could be so insensitive and not retractvtheir position. She got her rav involved and then a world-renowned expert on children who lost a parent. In the end, the school apologized and had the teacher pull this part of her curriculum..

The mom had some internal work to do to be able to forgive the principal of the school (who was a close friend) and in the end, she manages to forgive her.

Have you read the story, and what are your thoughts?

The frum world has a long way to go to realize that nothing is perfect and homogenious.

tweek

Mon, Apr 05 2021, 9:46 am

amother [ Blush ] wrote:

We change our curriculum all the time according to the specific circumstances of students. We have left out certain stories in literature, topics in Biology, nixed a certain storyline for school production, during the time that students with specific life circumstances were in the school or in a certain grade.

I can't think of anything that is so important to teach or talk about that it is worth hurting a student or causing her pain. There are so many other ways for people to read about or learn about these things.

We all know that if a teenager has a small pimple, she walks around SURE that EVERYONE notices it as soon as they see her. She is self conscious and uncomfortable all day. Imagine how she feels having to be out of class during such a discussion. She is sure that is all everyone is thinking and talking about for the next few days.

It scares me that so many people are so nonchalant about this. These girls are deeply affected by something that happened to them for the rest of their lives. This is one TINY thing we can do to make things easier.

amother

Gray

Mon, Apr 05 2021, 9:57 am

amother [ Khaki ] wrote:

I actually found it to be extremely insensitive. Doesn’t it say that we should be extra cautious not to hurt a yasom or almana? If this particular child was super sensitive to this subject and the mother had in mind to mention it then the teachers could’ve been more careful. Or at least apologize if they slipped up and try harder next time. It actually had me scratching my head at the insensitivity.
Whether the girl needed trauma therapy or not is really not the point.

This.

We are Jewish people who abide by the Torah.
The first comment on this thread is outrageous.

sushilover

Mon, Apr 05 2021, 10:03 am

tweek wrote:

The girl calls the shots? Where does this end?

I remember feeling very uncomfortable during class discussions about geirim, feeling like everyone is looking at me and thinking of my family. I don't think it would be appropriate for my family and teachers to decide that I call the shots and never teach my class the halachos pertaining to geirim.
A compromise could have very easily been made, but no, the mother insisted on nothing less than changing the curriculum entirely, depriving all the girls and probably all the girls in later years as well from an important class discussion about grief.

A 17 year old who lost a parent 12 years ago should call the shots when it comes to herself. Whether she wants to be involved at in the discussion or leave the classroom for those lessons or stay home for two days. She should not call the shots as to what the rest of the school is allowed to learn about.

As for the teacher, a teacher should 100% go out of her way to accommodate any child in a sensitive position, as long as it doesn't deprive the other students of something important. The other students are important too, and a compromise should be made whenever there is a conflict of needs.

Crookshanks

Mon, Apr 05 2021, 10:04 am

sushilover wrote:

This. Being nice to orphans doesn't include changing the school curriculum for everyone else. The school can instead give her a job during that period to keep her (and maybe a friend as well) unobtrusively out of the way.