Mishpacha double take

Chayalle

Mon, Apr 05 2021, 11:43 am

b.chadash wrote:

I think there is a dynamic here that is not spelled out but is assumed to be self-understood. And that is, that in the yeshiva world, if you want a son-in-law who is a serious masmid, you have to be willing to assume full support. The boy's family could be dirt poor, but if they have a "high caliber" son, they don't think they need to give anything. Whatever they do give is considered extra. This is not considered to be stingy if that is what all parties agreed to when entering into the shidduch.

In this story, the boy's family is indeed "dirt poor" and don't see themselves as obligated or able to assist in any meaningful way. Neverthelsss, the mother goes out to buy stuff for the baby, and she considers this as gift. It's not that they are stingy. It's that they don't have much, and they were under the impression that the other side was taking care of things.
We can criticize the boy's parents all day, but that would be ignoring the reality they, and ostensibly the girls parents, live in. These are the "rules" of the game, so to speak. You can refuse to play the game if you want, but if you are in the game, you must recognize the rules.

They are definitely not the rules in many yeshivish circles. If they are that poor, they should look for a more simple shidduch for their son. Otherwise, there are indeed expectations from the other side.

Saying this as someone who knows people like this IRL. People feel very hurt when the other side thinks the girl's side will do all the paying, and they don't contribute even a minimum.

I actually married a serious masmid, BTW...and my MIL A"H bought me a nice baby gift every time I had a baby. And they did not have money. Other gifts were minimal, but they didn't have the expectation that they do nothing, let the other side do everything.

watergirl

Mon, Apr 05 2021, 11:45 am

b.chadash wrote:

I think there is a dynamic here that is not spelled out but is assumed to be self-understood. And that is, that in the yeshiva world, if you want a son-in-law who is a serious masmid, you have to be willing to assume full support. The boy's family could be dirt poor, but if they have a "high caliber" son, they don't think they need to give anything. Whatever they do give is considered extra. This is not considered to be stingy if that is what all parties agreed to when entering into the shidduch.

In this story, the boy's family is indeed "dirt poor" and don't see themselves as obligated or able to assist in any meaningful way. Neverthelsss, the mother goes out to buy stuff for the baby, and she considers this as gift. It's not that they are stingy. It's that they don't have much, and they were under the impression that the other side was taking care of things.

We can criticize the boy's parents all day, but that would be ignoring the reality they, and ostensibly the girls parents, live in. These are the "rules" of the game, so to speak. You can refuse to play the game if you want, but if you are in the game, you must recognize the rules.

And the issue in the story, in your post, and in these real life situations are the assumptions. Sit down before an engagement, nail it all down, write down who will do what, and go from there. Keep in mind that life happens and the girls parents may very well find themselves unable to continue to support. Parnassa is up to Hashem and as we all know, He gives and He takes away.

And as we know from our dear Chayalle, anyone who is serious about her husband learning will see to it that he can do so even without her parents money.
(Edited to fix unfortunate type-o)

Last edited by watergirl on Mon, Apr 05 2021, 12:10 pm; edited 1 time in total

Lady A

Mon, Apr 05 2021, 11:53 am

Friends of mine married a daughter off 2 years ago. Both sets of parents discussed in detail what they would cover.
A year later, my friend and her husband discovered the boys parents didn’t even remotely come through on their end. Boy ended up taking a job, but it really was upsetting for my friend to discover they were now expected to cover everything. Sometimes you just don’t know how people will really act.

sushilover

Mon, Apr 05 2021, 12:04 pm

Although the concept of support is foreign to me, thought this was a great story. I understand the girl's side feeling that they are supporting so their mechutanim have no right to dictate how much is enough and exactly what they give or don't give.
I understand the boy's side feeling upset that the promise of support was not at all what they had imagined. They were in the wrong for not making the terms clear before the shidduch, but now that it's done, there's not much they can do. I don't think "communication" would solve the situation.

They were certainly wrong in refusing to recommend a shidduch for the other daughter. What they should have done was to recommend the shidduch, but ensure that the boy's side knows to have a clear agreement of what support means.

Amelia Bedelia

Mon, Apr 05 2021, 12:04 pm

watergirl wrote:

And the issue in the story, in your post, and in these real life situations are the assumptions. Sit down before an engagement, nail it all down, write down who will do what, and go from there. Keep in mind that life happens and the girls parents may very well find themselves unable to continue to support. Parnassa is up to Hashem and as we all know, He gives and He takes away.

And as we know from our dead Chayalle, anyone who is serious about her husband learning will see to it that he can do so even without her parents money.

I think you mean our dear Chayalle! LOL

amother

Yellow

Mon, Apr 05 2021, 12:13 pm

Lady A wrote:

This is going on in another thread real life here.
Op wants to stop working and her husband to drop Kollel.
From the point of his parents, I’m sure it was discussed in detail before marriage how long he would stay.
She decided she hates her job and he needs to go to work.
As a parent and as the husband, I would feel like your friend here

amother

Gold

Mon, Apr 05 2021, 12:24 pm

amother [ Yellow ] wrote:

Real life happens.
Medical issues. Mental health issues. Difficulties with children. Job loss. Things change, and it doesn't always mean there is a bad guy to blame. A 20 year old girl signing up for a lifetime of being the primary breadwinner really doesn't have a clue about what it entails, either.

b.chadash

Mon, Apr 05 2021, 12:34 pm

Chayalle wrote:

I totally agree that this is not the case in all- or even most- yeshivish circles. But in this story, that seemed to have been the underlying assumption on both sides.

And Watergirl, my post does not reflect my personal position in these matters. If you read the story, it seems clear that this was the assumption that both the boy's and girl's side had and agreed to. The boys side wanted to discuss the specifics, but the girl's side didn't want to get into them.

You can say the parents should have insisted. But we all know that when a shidduch is close to being finalized, it can get really tricky to start being insistent on things and coming across as overbearing. I can see that these parents felt they couldn't push it, and since they heard that the mechutanim were assuming full support, they felt they shouldn't push it.

As far as feeling hurt that one side doesn't contribute at all- again, it seems from the story that this is the agreement they all went into.

The whole subject of supporting a young couple is rife with potential for misunderstanding, hurt feelings, accusations and unmet expectations.

tigerwife

Mon, Apr 05 2021, 2:04 pm

Please raise your daughters and sons with the understanding that life costs money and as married adults, the young couple will be responsible to support themselves. So if your daughter decides that she truly wants to financially support her husband so that he can learn, she will need to have a real plan to do so.

Once they’re married, feel free to shower them with as many monetary or physical gifts as you want. They’re still your children! But the expectation should not be that they need to rely on Mommy and Daddy anymore.

I grew up in this world and it was fairly easy to understand. This isn’t rocket science. But the “support” thing has gotten so out of hand that you have young couples where the husband isn’t even committed to learning and they still expect to be fully supported.

Chayalle

Mon, Apr 05 2021, 2:07 pm

tigerwife wrote:

This is the world I grew up in as well. And how I raise my children.

amother

Silver

Mon, Apr 05 2021, 8:42 pm

amother [ Puce ] wrote:

A bit off topic but why is the girl's side expected to support when it's the boy who has the chiyuv in supporting his family? If the boy would like to learn, why isn't it the boys' achrayus to step in and support or offer some help since that is his obligation?

Supply and demand, the girl and her parents is desperate for this boy and are willing to support him forever so he can stay learning.
They can’t back out of their side of the agreement, if they want the boy to stay learning.

amother

Silver

Mon, Apr 05 2021, 8:45 pm

sushilover wrote:

They were certainly wrong in refusing to recommend a shidduch for the other daughter. What they should have done was to recommend the shidduch, but ensure that the boy's side knows to have a clear agreement of what support means.

This would have been a nice approach if the boys side called them for info, but it is pushing it a bit when they are insisting they should be the ones to redt it.

amother

Magenta

Mon, Apr 05 2021, 8:56 pm

amother [ Puce ] wrote:

I call it yiddishe-style extortion to fund the kollel system. Teach the girls that only learning boys are first class. Then since there are less learning boys than there are girls, the boys can demand a 'ransom' for the privilege of marrying them.

Cue the tomatoes.

b.chadash

Mon, Apr 05 2021, 9:42 pm

I think the idea of supporting the boy in learning has been around for hundreds of years. However, in those days, only the very few metzuyanim, the future rabbonim and gedolim stayed in learning. They often married wealthy girls and were supported by their father in law. The young talmid chacham was able to sit and learn undisturbed and eventually take a position.

Your average simple girl did not marry a learning boy. For the vast majority of men, marriage did not happen if they did not have a means of supporting a family.

Its only in the last 30-40 years that the expectation has become that your average boy stays in learning until marriage and very often beyond marriage, for x amount of time. Today's Roshei Yeshiva feel that this way, the new home will be established in the best possible way.

All of this leads to the burden falling on the parents to assume support. All parents of girls, not just those who are super wealthy and want to support a future gadol.

The trend is starting to turn back now, as more and more boys are going to work earlier and girls are looking to have more security.

amother

Magenta

Mon, Apr 05 2021, 9:55 pm

b.chadash wrote:

Aren't you contradicting yourself? You stated that today even the average boy is encouraged to stay in kollel. You then follow that by "all parents ... want to support a future gadol'. An average boy is not assumed to become a future gadol.

I think it's fair to say that placing the burden of support on middle or lower class parents is truly unfair and unrealistic. Where are such parents able to find the funds to support multiple families at once?

The trend is starting to turn back not so much because of security. It's because these boys and girls are products of this system and know the struggles, pains and burdens it causes firsthand. They saw the financial issues it created in their homes, they saw the pain and anguish it caused by shidduch, and/or they experienced the burden of being raised by a stretched-to-the-limit mother.

b.chadash

Mon, Apr 05 2021, 10:34 pm

Please reread what I wrote. I wrote, (or meant to write) "today ALL parents end up having to support the son in law in learning, NOT ONLY those parents who want to support a future gadol (as was the case 100 years ago)"
Hope that clarifies.

EtA: I agree with the rest of your comments.

Last edited by b.chadash on Mon, Apr 05 2021, 11:43 pm; edited 1 time in total