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About Chassidic Women Davening

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Hannah!

Fri, Mar 14 2008, 10:59 am

cassandra wrote:

I was never one to cry "man" but something seems fishy to me about this whole thing.

That is one of the most sexist things I have ever read on this site.

Women are just as capable of trolling as men, harumph.

cassandra

Fri, Mar 14 2008, 11:43 am

Agreed, but there is something about this which leads me to believe that it isn't your average troll.

Crayon210

Fri, Mar 14 2008, 12:19 pm

MeThinks, I'm still waiting to find out what exactly those "halachos" are. Not "shiurim...zmanei tefila..." Exact halachos that are different.

Thanks.

Hannah!

Fri, Mar 14 2008, 1:10 pm

In a post elsewhere, MeThinks said that she lives in Eretz Hakodesh -- so I wouldn't expect her to reply before Motzoi Shabbos at the earliest.

mimivan

Sat, Mar 15 2008, 7:01 pm

MeThinks wrote:

mimivan wrote:

MeThinks wrote:

cassandra wrote:

The debate was whether or not a woman is required even that.

The citation is 106:1, by the way (which was in the link Motek posted).

From that article we also see 2 points that proves my point:
1) "it was a rare woman who davened in the olden days. Running a household was an all-consuming task, and many women were illiterate to boot."
2) "The Chafetz Chayim's son reported (Sichos Chafetz Chayim, pg. 13) that his mother rarely davened when her children were young. She said that the Chafetz Chayim exempted her from davening during that period in her life."

if women were all exempted from davening...why would the Chofetz Chaim have to exempt his wife from davening (I'm not challenging I'm just asking)

MOST CHASSIDIC WOMEN DAVEN. We're discussing here if a woman can't or does not feel up to it. It seems that the Chafetz Chaim exempted her from davening because she probably couldn't.

But that's my point...I understand most chassidic women daven... question is (again!) is if women are exempt from Davening anyway, why would the Chofetz Chaim have to exempt his wife? Unless she had taken on davening before and by her it was like a neder? (I.e. a rav told me my husband would have to nullify my Maariv before three men because a woman saying tefillah on a regular basis is like a vow even though she has not made a vow.) Meaning, she cannot just stop davening maariv just because she doesnt' feel up to it. This is something that is not widely known, I believe, because I have had women encourage me to "drop" my tefillahs and I did drop Maariv, until I asked a Rav who said there was a halachic problem with just stopping

It seems that women are obligated to daven if they are used to davening (which is why singles should be careful about what they take on Wink

) I'm thinking perhaps the Chofetz Chaim was nullifying practice of davening his wife took on before they got married/had children.

A woman is not obligated by most opinons. But once she does, she is obligated to continue unless her "vow" is nullified (at least according to my rav)

cassandra

Sat, Mar 15 2008, 8:06 pm

Mimi, if you have in mind that it isn't a regular thing then it does not become a neder even if you do it every day.

mimivan

Sat, Mar 15 2008, 8:33 pm

I don't know if my rav would agree with that... but I can imagine someone's rav would

How can someone have in mind that it is not a regular thing when it is a regular thing...How many times have I heard women say "I have to daven maariv" or "I have to bentsch." At least for that moment it seems like an intention that one is doing it regularly. And I can't imagine that a single woman thinks to herself every time she davens maariv "I'm taking this on until I get married."

I'm just saying it is difficult to pin down exact intentions...

chocolate moose

Sat, Mar 15 2008, 8:34 pm

for clarity, bentching is d'oraisa.

amother

Sat, Mar 15 2008, 10:23 pm

MeThinks wrote:

Motek wrote:

and there is no such thing as "chassidic halachos"

That's because you're not chassidic and don't know much about chassidus.

HUH?

Motek isn't chassidic?
Motek doesn't know much about Chassidus?

Oh my heavens, I think I'm about to have a cardiac arrest C"V
I'm now completely disallusioned and confused.

unless that was a joke?

ohhhh it must have been!

bashinda

Sat, Mar 15 2008, 11:02 pm

just want to say one thing....

DON'T FEED THE TROLL!!!!

cassandra

Sat, Mar 15 2008, 11:09 pm

We are having lots of fun with the troll, but thanks.

TzenaRena

Sun, Mar 16 2008, 12:10 am

MeThinks wrote:

cassandra wrote:

Chasidish society has a very unique approach to women and these rules probably come from a notion of how that society should be constructed rather than by following halacha as it has been passed down.

Chassidic halachos being different is not only pertaining to women. In general, there are many halachos that are different.

I find this different from the portrait of what is expected of or taught to women that is presented in the Lubavitcher Rebbe's memoirs, which records some fascinating glimpses into the lives of the early Chassidim of the Baal Shem Tov (pre-chabad), and his predecessors: the forerunners of the founders of Chassidus: the mekubalim.

Rochel, the mother of Reb Boruch, the Alter Rebbe's father, was an extremely learned woman. She was the daughter of Reb Boruch "Batlan" (Portugaler), who was a follower of Reb Yoel Baal Shem. Her husband, Rabbi Schneur Zalman [ the Alter Rebbe's grandfather ]came from a different school of thought... Once, when the Eruv of the city of Posen broke, and the family was on the way home from shul, the men were carrying seforim etc., nobody knew what to do, and R. Baruch turned to his daughter and asked her to tell them the halacha, which she reluctantly did. Upon arriving home, they checked in the shulchan Aruch, and saw that she had paskened correctly. (She was versed in the Gemara, Rambam, all the Poskim, up till the Shulchan Aruch and all the commentaries).

this was by virtue of the fact that the mekubalim and the followers of Kaballah made no distinction and educated their daughters too, in Tanach, Mishna, Gemara, Poskim.

On the other hand, Rivka, the mother of the Alter Rebbe, who was brought up as a fine and G-dfearing girl nonetheless had not learned Torah before her engagement to Reb Boruch, being that her father, R. Avraham the "gertner" belonged to the Misnagdic school of thought...

Imaonwheels

Sun, Mar 16 2008, 12:13 am

MeThinks wrote:

Imaonwheels wrote:

This is not true. The Chassidishe poskim have developed a shita of their owm since rhe Maggid of Mezeritch requested that the Baal HaTanya compile the Shulchan Aruch HaRav. who, BTW, paskens that women are chayav 2 tefilot but are not bound by time restriction men have or minyan.

I'm sure you're aware that Lubavitch chassidus is different than all the other chassidus - with some different minhagim and halachos.

Yes, I know that Lubavitch has some minhagim or psakim that are different. I also know that every chassidus has some minhagim that are different. Gur is different from Vizhnitz in some ways as well.

The difference is that I am not assuming. I know when a minhag is unique to us and I know the minhagim of other groups. If I need to know my minhagim I can look it up. If I am interested in someone else's I can also look it up, in most cases in my own bookshelf. Or I can ask my friends from other chassiduses. When a person understands the concepts then we don't accuse the other person w/o knowing.

If you did learn you would know that the RSA is written by the Baal HaTanya but is not a Lubavitch specific sefer. He is a recognized acharon consulted in all psika.The Maggid of Mezeritch, who assigned him the task of writing itand was hioas Rebbe at the time is common to all chassidim.

mimivan

Sun, Mar 16 2008, 1:08 am

amother wrote:

MeThinks wrote:

Motek wrote:

and there is no such thing as "chassidic halachos"

That's because you're not chassidic and don't know much about chassidus.

I didn't read this before I posted...
Wow this is some kind of weird thing...

I agree with Bashinda: Don't feed the troll

Hannah!

Sun, Mar 16 2008, 1:43 am

chocolate moose wrote:

for clarity, bentching is d'oraisa.

Can't you just say the posuk "v'achalta..." and be yotzoi on your de'Oraisa? I don't think that all four berachos are Biblically required.

mimivan

Sun, Mar 16 2008, 1:47 am

Hannah! wrote:

chocolate moose wrote:

for clarity, bentching is d'oraisa.

Can't you just say the posuk "v'achalta..." and be yotzoi on your de'Oraisa? I don't think that all four berachos are Biblically required.

But I learned not required for women...

Hannah!

Sun, Mar 16 2008, 1:53 am

Mimivan -- To clarify, you were taught 1. men are yotzoi on their de'Oraisa by just reciting the posuk "v'achalta...", and 2. women are not mechiyuv de'Oraisa?

Imaonwheels

Sun, Mar 16 2008, 2:10 am

IIRC the 1st 3 brochos are chayav or d'oraisa.

mimivan

Sun, Mar 16 2008, 4:30 am

Hannah! wrote:

Mimivan -- To clarify, you were taught 1. men are yotzoi on their de'Oraisa by just reciting the posuk "v'achalta...", and 2. women are not mechiyuv de'Oraisa?

I was told by a menahelet of a seminary that back in the day..women didn't bentsch at all nor were they required to...women bentsching has been in recent generations. Perhaps rabbis posken differently on this issue than they used to.

shalhevet

Sun, Mar 16 2008, 5:08 am

The first three brochos in bentching are midoraisa (Torah law), and the fourth is midrabanan (Rabbinic law). (If you are full. If you ate a kzayit it's midrabanan.) It is a safek (doubt) if women are required to bench midoiraisa or mideraban.

Meaning: It is possibly a Torah law for women to bentch. That's how important it is. I can't believe women are discussing it as an option.

I know the Sephardim have a shortened version for women, but that includes all the Torah requirements.

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