about Chassidic Women Davening

Besiyata Dishmaya

Sun, Mar 16 2008, 5:49 am

cassandra wrote:

Because it speaks to your consistent inconsistency, which you asked about. You didn't address my second point, only my first, so I am responding.

Also, you never answered me about whether or not you believe in a second revelation. I need to know that so that I know whether I should continue this discussion.

What your "second revelation" that I should believe in or not?

Besiyata Dishmaya

Sun, Mar 16 2008, 6:04 am

GR wrote:

I asked if Chaseedishe women are obligated to hear every word of the Megillah. The question makes perfect sense to me, since it's a time-bound mitzvah and not easy for a mother to get to shul, which is why I presume you don't hear shofar, parshas zachor, and I don't know what else, which is why I asked.

I don't know what that has to do with saying shmone esrei over again if you forgot yaaleh v'yavo. Obviously those who daven will do it, and those who don't daven, it won't happen to them.

In my previous answer to you I stated clearly that Chassidishe women are obligated to hear every word of the Megillah. Your question is probably not whether they're obligated to "hear every word" but whether or not they're obligated to hear Megillah in the first place. Right? Of course they are! Because "She'af hen hoyu be'osoi haness". Haman wanted to kill the women as well, so they're obligated to fulfill all the mitzvos of Purim just like men.

Just like you have the right to ask me about Megillah, I believe I have the right to ask you about yaaleh veyove in shemone esreh. And here you also didn't answer me my question, whether women are "obligated" to repeat shemone esreh if they forget it. And don't tell me "Obviously those who daven will do it". Did you ever forget to say it and repeat it from all the way the beginning? The truth please. I did! But it doesn't mean that women are obligated to repeat it.

Besiyata Dishmaya

Sun, Mar 16 2008, 6:14 am

GR wrote:

And why are you telling Lubavitch women that they're not "Chassidic," as you put it, and don't know "Chassidic halachos."

From your posts, it seems that either you don't read every word what people write but just skim through it or you enjoy reading between lines and stating things that's part of your imaginations.
Could you please show me where I stated that Lubavitch women are not Chassidic? Here's what I wrote:

MeThinks wrote:

(Some of Lubavitch minhagim and halachos are different than other chassidus.)

I would suggest you start a daily course on hilchos Loshon Hora and Motzei Shem Ra from the Chafetz Chaim zt"l. It might help you read and understand what people write and say and save you being Motzei Shem Ra.

Besiyata Dishmaya

Sun, Mar 16 2008, 6:19 am

GR wrote:

Who do you think compiled the Shulchan Aruch that brings the opinions based on Kabbalah that you are talking about? Did you learn the Shulchan Aruch in school?

I learned the Shulchan Aruch and probably know the halochos better than you. It seems that you don't know much about chassidus and kabbalah though.

Besiyata Dishmaya

Sun, Mar 16 2008, 6:22 am

cassandra wrote:

If you forget yaaleh v'yavo in Maariv there are some who argue that S"E should no be repeated since it is a reshus. There are those who argue otherwise, but for the most part people agree that women who forget yaaleh v'yavo in maariv should NOT repeat it since it's really a reshus. So maybe her reasoning is that if formal tefilah is a reshus for women then they would not have to repeat yaaleh v'yavo since they don't need to "fulfill" anything with their tefilah.

It's not because "they don't need to "fulfill" anything with their tefilah" chas vesholom! But because the psak halochoh for women is different for many dinim.

Besiyata Dishmaya

Sun, Mar 16 2008, 6:27 am

Hannah! wrote:

That's my entire point. You said upthread that Chassidim like you do NOT know sources, and do NOT quote.

If I know the source, why not quote? What I said was that I'm not the biggest talmid chochom and don't know the source for everything and that chassidim will not ask the Rov or Dayan where is the source for your psak halocheh?

Besiyata Dishmaya

Sun, Mar 16 2008, 6:36 am

Hannah! wrote:

MeThinks wrote:

Hannah! wrote:

For example, if MeThinks grew up in a more modern environment and went to, say, Maimonides before adopting whatever sect of Chassidus she currently belongs to, it isn't too big a stretch to think that she might still remember some of the sources that she learned in elementary school and high school.

MeThinks comes from a chassidic home and has holy chassidic ancestors and knows halachos, in general, probably better than you. Those who aren't chassidic have a hard time with the idea that chassidus have some different halachos and minhagim.

I also haven't argued your level of education, so please don't go around being nasty. There's no need to go there.

I DID point out an inconsistency, in that in one thread you claim that Chassidim in general don't know mekoros for halachic opinions and aren't bothered by that, and in a different thread give a specific mukor. When another poster used that as evidence that you may be trolling, I came up with a perfectly legitimate potential explanation -- you'll note that while there is no mitzvah to be nasty to people that disagree with you, there is a mitzvah to be don be'kof zechus.

My explanation may have been wrong, but there is no need to get nasty as a means of "thanking" me for having defended you.

You haven't argued my level of education??? So what's the above that you've posted? And where do you see that I'm nasty? I found that if something doesn't agree with you, you automatically assume that I'm a bt and still remember things I learned in a non-religious elementary school. That's quite offending.

Intresting that "you" are talking about being dan lekaf zchus. Read your own post above before giving mussar to others. And regarding the mekor, see my previous answer to you.

Besiyata Dishmaya

Sun, Mar 16 2008, 6:42 am

mimivan wrote:

But that's my point...I understand most chassidic women daven... question is (again!) is if women are exempt from Davening anyway, why would the Chofetz Chaim have to exempt his wife?) Unless she had taken on davening before and by her it was like a neder?

Your assumption might be true, but perhaps she felt the same way as Amother who started the thread.

Besiyata Dishmaya

Sun, Mar 16 2008, 7:53 am

cassandra wrote:

So why not hide your women's publications in your underwear drawer? They don't need to be lying around either. And do the men in your home not know how to turn on the computer? The potential for a man to see something that would lead to inappropriate thoughts is about a billion times greater if you have the Internet in your house then if you have a magazine with three pictures of tzniusly dressed women.

I'm putting this question to the thread of Photos of women in Frum Publications where it belongs. You'll find my response there too.

Besiyata Dishmaya

Sun, Mar 16 2008, 8:30 am

cassandra wrote:

Ok, this isn't fun anymore. This person is either a troll or completely incapable of linear thought, either of which is a giant waste of my time today (last week it wasn't I suppose).

Call me a troll or any name you like. It's your problem, not mine. But this would not hinder my truthful response to those who question my posts.

TzenaRena

Sun, Mar 16 2008, 8:44 am

MeThinks has her reasons/sources for stating what she does, whether they are accurate or not, whether we agree with them or not. Even if some posts seem a bit inconsistent, that can be normal enough for many of us ladies, I don't doubt that she is a legitimate poster. Smile

MeThinks, I have brought down some sources bearing on this issue in other threads, I'll try to find them, and post links.

Besiyata Dishmaya

Sun, Mar 16 2008, 9:37 am

cassandra wrote:

I have no idea what you are trying to prove and what you mean. Tzena, are you saying you can vouch for her personally?

While there are people who find it easier to make fun of writers saying the truth which they have difficulty accepting, there are clever people who can see the heart in the writers and the truth they convey and have enough intelligence and respect not to bash them even if they disagree.

gryp

Sun, Mar 16 2008, 9:43 am

Interesting point, Tzena!

Quote:

That's the reason women are obligated to hear Megillah in the first place. I was asking to see if there's any difference in the way you hold. Obviously there isn't.

Quote:

Just like you have the right to ask me about Megillah, I believe I have the right to ask you about yaaleh veyove in shemone esreh. And here you also didn't answer me my question, whether women are "obligated" to repeat shemone esreh if they forget it. And don't tell me "Obviously those who daven will do it". Did you ever forget to say it and repeat it from all the way the beginning? The truth please. I did! But it doesn't mean that women are obligated to repeat it.

I really don't see the relevance to this discussion. You are asking me personally? Of course I repeat it if I forget it. I've been learning that since 3rd grade, probably, that that's the proper thing to do.

If you are saying that women don't have to, do what you want. I was taught halacha l'maaseh differently than what you say.

What does that have to do with the halachos and minhagim you say are different because of Kabbalah?

gryp

Sun, Mar 16 2008, 9:48 am

MeThinks wrote:

GR wrote:

And why are you telling Lubavitch women that they're not "Chassidic," as you put it, and don't know "Chassidic halachos."

MeThinks wrote:

(Some of Lubavitch minhagim and halachos are different than other chassidus.)

Hon, you've told at least two Lubavitch women so far that they don't know much about Chassidus because they are not Chassidic.
Now how you can figure that ridiculous assumption makes as much sense as your "I know better than you" argument.

If you knew Chassidus like you say you do, you wouldn't be suggesting to me to learn the Chofetz Chaim, as if that has anything to do with anything I said. It seems to me you have fun posting empty irrelevant posts.

Last edited by gryp on Sun, Mar 16 2008, 11:10 am; edited 1 time in total

gryp

Sun, Mar 16 2008, 9:54 am

MeThinks wrote:

GR wrote:

Who do you think compiled the Shulchan Aruch that brings the opinions based on Kabbalah that you are talking about? Did you learn the Shulchan Aruch in school?

I learned the Shulchan Aruch and probably know the halochos better than you. It seems that you don't know much about chassidus and kabbalah though.

Um, LOL?

I'm asking because it seems Chaseedishe schools girls aren't taught inside seforim. Can you please tell us at what opportunity you were able to learn inside the Shulchan Aruch and Sifrei Chassidus? Do you learn these by yourself or do you hear vertlach from your husband?

And if you knew halacha you wouldn't have said in the first place that women not davening has anything to do with Kabbalastic reasons.

And just knowing the passuk "Lo Sasuru" doesn't qualify as broad halachic background. Nor does Chassidishe stories or one's own personal minhagim qualify for knowledge of Chassidus.