about Chassidic Women Davening

cassandra

Thu, Mar 13 2008, 5:07 pm

GR wrote:

I think I remember reading that Tefila itself we are obligated in, but we can daven later than the zman if necessary- we don't have the time constraints.

There are those who say that women are obligated in zman tefilla to the extent that you can't daven shacharis at night... others hold women to a more stringent time frame (in communities where zman tefilla is very strict, I understand that this isn't the case across the board.)

Quote:

There are lots of mitzvos she'hazman grama that women took upon themselves, and we are obligated in them.

And there are lots that women are obligated in m'doraisa, like kiddush, and others that the rabbanan obligated us in, and still others that we accepted upon ourselves (like shofar)

Besiyata Dishmaya

Thu, Mar 13 2008, 5:15 pm

cassandra wrote:

Whatever. I've proven my point.

And so have I. As chassidim, we rely completely on Rabbonim and Dayonim. No questions asked for sources and proof.

cassandra

Thu, Mar 13 2008, 5:18 pm

Which isn't what you said. You made a definitive statement about women and davening, one which is outside the bounds of normative halacha. If you would have just said "OP, if you are chasidish don't worry because chasidish women don't have to daven" then I don't think anyone would have taken issue with your statement.

Why not just admit that there was something that you assumed and that your assumption was incorrect, and now you are a better person since you have gained knowledge?

Besiyata Dishmaya

Thu, Mar 13 2008, 5:23 pm

cassandra wrote:

Quote:

There are lots of mitzvos she'hazman grama that women took upon themselves, and we are obligated in them.

And there are lots that women are obligated in m'doraisa, like kiddush, and others that the rabbanan obligated us in, and still others that we accepted upon ourselves (like shofar)

There are several chassidus (don't know about Lubavitch) that hold that women are not obligated in shofar. I don't know the source for that either. But that's how it is. No questions asked.

Besiyata Dishmaya

Thu, Mar 13 2008, 5:32 pm

cassandra wrote:

In other forums I noticed people stating halachos without saying whether they're chassidic, litvish, MO or whatever and without sources. They just say it. And that's exactly what I did. (I don't remember off hand where it was, but it was in the th/niddah section.)

Also, I didn't realize that this shita that is SO common is not the accepted one all over.

cassandra

Thu, Mar 13 2008, 5:35 pm

Ok. But if someone were to post that she was having a hard time because she didn't know if she could get to shul to hear shofar, an inappropriate response would be "Women are not obligated in shofar! Never!"

Chasidish society has a very unique approach to women and these rules probably come from a notion of how that society should be constructed rather than by following halacha as it has been passed down. Do women not hear Zachor either?

cassandra

Thu, Mar 13 2008, 5:38 pm

MeThinks wrote:

Certain things are well accepted, other things aren't; those us who learn Halacha know the difference.

Quote:

Also, I didn't realize that this shita that is SO common is not the accepted one all over.

So if that is the case, what's the phrase? Quit while you are ahead?

Besiyata Dishmaya

Thu, Mar 13 2008, 5:50 pm

cassandra wrote:

"Never" according to you. But if someone would ask me, I would say "that's right" because it's a mitzvas asei shezman geromo.

cassandra wrote:

Do women not hear Zachor either?

That's right, the same as for shofar. In many chassidus, they don't.

cassandra wrote:

Chasidish society has a very unique approach to women and these rules probably come from a notion of how that society should be constructed rather than by following halacha as it has been passed down.

Chassidic halachos being different is not only pertaining to women. In general, there are many halachos that are different.

Crayon210

Thu, Mar 13 2008, 5:54 pm

MeThinks wrote:

cassandra wrote:

"Never" according to you. But if someone would ask me, I would say "that's right" because it's a mitzvas asei shezman geromo.

Which, again, is fine, when you're talking to other chassidishe women who hold that way. But in a forum where there are lots of women, it's inappropriate unless you qualify it as a communal thing. And if you aren't sure, don't say anything, or just say, "Well, in my community..."

Saying "never" or "definitely" or other such words are not good ones to use unless you're sure.

cassandra

Thu, Mar 13 2008, 5:55 pm

MeThinks wrote:

"Never" according to you. But if someone would ask me, I would say "that's right" because it's a mitzvas asei shezman geromo.

But it's inappropriate as a general response. And again, the zman grama rule does not apply across the board so it can't be used as a proof of anything.

Quote:

Chassidic halachos being different is not only pertaining to women. In general, there are many halachos that are different.

In my mind that isn't something to be proud of.

Crayon210

Thu, Mar 13 2008, 5:57 pm

What halachos are we talking about?

I recognize that Chabad is different in this, but what halachos do the other chassidim not keep? Confused

I know a number of non-Chabad Chassidim and they all seem to keep halacha the way we do. Confused

Besiyata Dishmaya

Thu, Mar 13 2008, 6:03 pm

Crayon210 wrote:

MeThinks wrote:

cassandra wrote:

"Never" according to you. But if someone would ask me, I would say "that's right" because it's a mitzvas asei shezman geromo.

Don't you think the same should apply to you? If 50% of Imamothers are chassidic and 50% not, what makes the non-chassidic the norm? As a rule then, everyone should say beforehand to what community they belong.

Crayon210

Thu, Mar 13 2008, 6:05 pm

You're misunderstanding me (third time today I'm not clear... Confused

)

I'm not talking about what's norm v. not norm. I'm talking about saying the word "never" or "always" or "definitely". Even if this whole site was chassidishe ladies who don't daven, it would be wrong to say "there's no such halacha that women are chayav to daven. Never!"

If you were discussing practically in the chassidishe section, then you can say, "we don't daven", etc.

But kal vachomer on a board where there are women from all walks of life, you can't throw out a definite statement (THAT ISN'T TRUE), ESPECIALLY without qualifying who you are.

Besiyata Dishmaya

Thu, Mar 13 2008, 6:14 pm

cassandra wrote:

MeThinks wrote:

Chassidic halachos being different is not only pertaining to women. In general, there are many halachos that are different.

In my mind that isn't something to be proud of.

You're saying so because you're not chassidic and don't understand what chassidus is all about and chassidic minhagim according to halachah and kabbalah.

Crayon210

Thu, Mar 13 2008, 6:18 pm

I'm chassidic, and I understand what chassidus is all about (well, maybe not all ;-)), and I am very curious as to what minhagim you're talking about (though in previous posts they were halachos).

cassandra

Thu, Mar 13 2008, 6:23 pm

MeThinks wrote:

You're saying so because you're not chassidic and don't understand what chassidus is all about and chassidic minhagim according to halachah and kabbalah.

You said that chasidim do things that are outside of halacha, such as not requiring women to daven. In that case it isn't something to be proud of. I don't need to be chasidic to understand it. I am perfectly capable of understanding aspects of another culture even if I'm not in that culture myself.

Furthermore, if you are asserting that kabbalah can uproot halacha then I am very worried. That sounds kind of New Testament-ish to me.

Besiyata Dishmaya

Thu, Mar 13 2008, 6:25 pm

Crayon210 wrote:

I'm chassidic, and I understand what chassidus is all about (well, maybe not all ;-)), and I am very curious as to what minhagim you're talking about (though in previous posts they were halachos).

There are quite a few halachos and minhagim (and that's what I meant to write before) but it's after midnight here in Israel and can't think now. Perhaps you should start a new thread on minhagim and halachos that are different for chassidim. I'm sure many will be glad to chip in.

cassandra

Thu, Mar 13 2008, 6:57 pm

I still don't understand how someone whose policy regarding halacha is to follow what her dayan says and not ask questions can make sweeping statements about the nature of halacha.