A different flavor

Tamiri

Mon, Mar 17 2008, 8:36 am

http://www.nytimes.com/package......html

Mimisinger

Mon, Mar 17 2008, 8:42 am

hmmm

HindaRochel

Mon, Mar 17 2008, 8:51 am

I think the problem for most Orthdox Jews is that this isn't an Orthdox shul and that would call into question the validity of the conversions. I wish that this were an Orthodox shul and Rabbi Funnye really was bridging gaps.

greenfire

Mon, Mar 17 2008, 8:55 am

all lead to the path of godliness

Tamiri

Mon, Mar 17 2008, 9:03 am

HindaRochel wrote:

The article did not mention if they were Jews from birth or converts, or if they care one way or another.
I liked the music!

Seraph

Mon, Mar 17 2008, 11:50 am

interesting.
chicagoans, can you tell me more?

Crayon210

Mon, Mar 17 2008, 11:59 am

greenfire wrote:

all lead to the path of godliness

Tamiri

Mon, Mar 17 2008, 12:01 pm

breslov wrote:

interesting.
chicagoans, can you tell me more?

I lived in Chicago and he never once was a scholar in residence in our shul shock

BeershevaBubby

Mon, Mar 17 2008, 12:15 pm

HindaRochel wrote:

Based on what the article said, I would question the validity of the conversions.

Looking at the video (which presumably was taken on Shabbat since it mentions Oneg), I would disagree with the article affiliating them "between Conservative and Modern Orthodox". I would say they're Reform, if anything. Especially since the woman who speaks, Tamar, says that she observes Shabbat from sundown to sundown (with no clarification as to what that observance entails) yet doesn't observe the laws of Kashrut.

HindaRochel

Mon, Mar 17 2008, 12:20 pm

Tamiri wrote:

HindaRochel wrote:

The article did not mention if they were Jews from birth or converts, or if they care one way or another.
I liked the music!

It doesn't say much but it did talk about many of them coming to Judaism late in life.

Tamiri

Mon, Mar 17 2008, 12:24 pm

I wonder if they are totally different than the Black Hebrews who came here in the 1970s claiming to be the lost tribes. They, too, hail from Chicago. South side, if I am not mistaken, where they escaped squalor and povety. They live in Dimona in their own commune and have quite a thing going. They are vegetarians who make everything themselves (yes, tofu to nuts). They sew their own clothes. They have fringed garments (tsitsit anyone) that they wear on the outside, not under a shirt. They have a fine way of living, 2 wives per guy being a normal family.
The Jewish guys in the slide show seem to be trying to be "something", I just don't know what. How can the woman say they do Shabbat but not kosher?

ChossidMom

Mon, Mar 17 2008, 6:03 pm

All I can say is "Love that music!"
and
Who ARE these people?

ybs

Mon, Mar 17 2008, 6:21 pm

I think it says a lot. they might not be "frum" but they are accepting Judaism as the truth, which is a step in the right direction. this gets their foot in the door which may lead to more learning and more observance. The truth of Torah will ultimately prevail

BeershevaBubby

Tue, Mar 18 2008, 1:02 am

ybs wrote:

I find that statement ironic, given the rancor many on this site have for any Jew not strictly Orthodox.

ora_43

Tue, Mar 18 2008, 5:40 am

Tamiri wrote:

How can the woman say they do Shabbat but not kosher?

She never said they "do Shabbat" in the sense that we would recognize as such. She said she "dedicates the day to God." Which is great, but could mean a whole lot of different things.

I did think the way she spoke about kashrut said a lot. Not "I don't do that," but "Their judaism says this, mine says..." etc. Implying that she doesn't just not keep kosher, but she doesn't think kosher needs to be kept at all. To me that implies a more written-Torah-only type of view. OTOH the shul seems to have a station for netilat yedaim, which isn't exactly explicit written Torah, so who knows?

hila

Tue, Mar 18 2008, 6:18 am

A google search turned up this
http://www.bethshalombz.org/about.html

So I guess they are an Ethiopian Jewish sort of shul

Emee

Wed, Mar 19 2008, 10:42 am

I wonder if any of the members keep kosher ...Tamar (female voice) may only be speaking about herself but not for the entire congregation. There also didn't appear to be a mechitza of any sort.

HindaRochel

Wed, Mar 19 2008, 1:16 pm

A bit about the "Hebrew-Israelite" faith (their name, not mine and I don't know anymore than what I searched for.)

There are some legit, completely legit, Black-Jewish communities, where most of the members are frum from birth. I don't think this is one of them.

http://66.102.9.104/search?q=c.....fox-a
This is a 14 or so page report.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrar......html
excerpt from the pertinent part:
(BTW, I do agree that our forefathers were probably black, or at least of a lot darker hue then most Jews are today.)

Quote:

Rabbi W.A. Matthew -- The Black Jews of Harlem

My background and most of my data come from working with those congregations that derive from the late Chief Rabbi Wentworth Arthur Matthew (1892-1973). Rabbi Matthew founded the Commandment Keepers Congregation in Harlem, New York in 1919. He trained and ordained many of the rabbis who later founded synagogues in various places of the United States and the Caribbean. Rabbi Matthew, it turns out, was a close associate of Rabbi Arnold J. Ford who was the musical director of the Universal [black person] Improvement Association (UNIA) which was organized by Marcus Garvey in 1911.

The emergence of Judaism among people of African descent in the first half of this century was made possible by a combination of the following factors: (1) A strong religious tradition in the background of the person who became Jewish that embodied Jewish practices from an early but unclear source. When interviewed, many of the older members of this community recall memories of their parents observing certain dietary laws, such as abstaining from pork or salting their meat. Others recall traditions related to observing the Sabbath or festivals such as Passover and Sukkot. In most cases these practices were fragmentary and observed by people who simultaneously practiced Christianity.

The possible origins of these Hebraic traditions could be traced to West Africa were a number of tribes have customs so similar to Judaism that an ancient connection or maybe even descent from one of the "ten lost tribes" is believed. Other possibilities for these well-documented practices are through association with Jewish slave owners and merchants in the Caribbean and North America. In this case, the number of Jewish slave owners is known to have been small and proselytizing by Jews was not common. Yet, these Jews can not be excluded as one possible source either through isolated conversions, intermarriage, or providing an opportunity for observation.

Many African Americans who practice Judaism today maintain that they have always had a close affinity with the Hebrews of the Old Testament. This is true whether or not they recall particular rites that remind them of the Jewish traditions they now follow. Scholars such as Albert Raboteau have described in books such as Slave Religion that the biblical struggles of the Hebrew people--particularly their slavery and exodus from Egypt--bore a strong similarity to the conditions of African slaves and was therefore of special importance to them. This close identification with the biblical Hebrews is clearly seen in the lyrics of gospel songs such as "Go Down Moses" and remains a favorite theme in the sermons of black clergy today.

What all this proves is that there was a foundation, be it psychological , spiritual, or historical, that made some black people receptive to the direct appeal to Judaism that Rabbi Matthew and others made to them in this century. If black people were fertile ground for the harbingers of Judaism, then the philosophy of Marcus Garvey was the seed that helped to bring it to fruition. Put most simply, Garvey's message was one of Black Nationalism and Pan Africanism. His goal was to instill pride in a people who were being humiliated through institutionalized racism and cultural bigotry. Garvey and Matthew attempted to challenge old stereotypes that either minimized a black presence in history or the bible, or, that completely excised black people from these texts. They argued that such distortions and omissions were harmful to the self-image that many black people had of themselves. They debunked these myths by extolling the contributions that black people made to the development of human civilization. To some extent this meant focusing on the achievements of African societies such as Egypt and Ethiopia in highly rhetorical and romantic way. It also meant attacking the false image that all the people in the bible looked like Europeans. They pointed out that by normative standards the dark hues of the ancient Hebrews would cause them to be classified as black in today's world. This was a revelation to thousands of black people who had previously accepted the all white depictions without question.

Rabbi Ford and Rabbi Matthew took Garvey's philosophy one step further. They reasoned that if many of the ancient Hebrews were black, then Judaism was as much a part of their cultural and religious heritage as is Christianity. In their hearts and minds they were not converting to Judaism, they were reclaiming part of their legacy. This fit very neatly with the biblical prophecies that spoke of the Israelites being scattered all over the world, being carried in slave ships to distant lands, and of being forced to worship alien Gods. (Deut 28)

Rabbi Matthew found himself in the peculiar position of having to both justify his small following of black Jews in Harlem, and also to explain the presence of so many white Jews. His position on this subject went through various stages. He always maintained that the "original Jews" were black people-or at least not European; however, he did not deny the existence or legitimacy of white Jews. In fact, as his services, synagogues, and attire show, he deferred to orthodox conventions on many matters. For example, he maintained separate setting for men and women, he used a standard siddur (prayer book) to conduct his services, worshippers wore tallitzim and kippot (prayer shawls and yarmulkes), they affixed mezuzot, wore tefillin, used standard texts in their Hebrew and rabbinic schools and read from a Sefer Torah.

Rabbi Matthew believed that although the "original Jews" were black people, white Jews had kept and preserved Judaism over the centuries. Since we, black Jews, were just "returning" to Judaism it was necessary for us to look to white Jews on certain matters--particularly on post-biblical and rabbinic holidays such as Hanukkah which could not be found in the Torah. However, it is important to note that Rabbi Matthew felt free to disagree on matters where he had a strong objection. He also recognized that since many customs, songs, and foods were of European origin, that he had the right to introduce some African, Caribbean, and American traditions into his community. Of course, his right to do this was often challenged, sometimes by Jews who were "Americanizing" Judaism themselves. Rabbi Matthew was constantly aware of apparent double standards within Judaism. After decades of trying to find common ground with white Jews by speaking at white synagogues around the county and at B'nai Brith lodges internationally, and after repeated attempts to join the New York Board of Rabbis, Rabbi Matthew concluded that black Jews would never be fully accepted by white Jews and certainly not if they insisted on maintaining a black identity and independent congregations. Since his death in 1973, there has been virtually no dialog between white and black Jews in America.

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BeershevaBubby

Wed, Mar 19 2008, 1:22 pm

So these are the Black Hebrews/Israelites?

I wasn't sure (I also Googled them and came up with the Hebrews-Israelites).

HindaRochel

Wed, Mar 19 2008, 2:30 pm

I just googled the stuff from their page, the name they call themselves, which isn't very informative as there are some Christian groups that call themselves Hebrew-Isralites, and the name of the Rabbi Matthew.