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Children want to know why our relatives don't dress tznius
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juggling




 
 
 
 

Post Mon, May 03 2021, 12:25 pm
amother [ Chocolate ] wrote:
It does not have to be condescending- as a bt I can tell you it is the truth that we did not know any better and did not have the benefit of frum education.

This doesn't work in all cases, though. In OP's case she's talking about people who keep shabbos and kashrus and learn in Jewish schools, but they don't dress according to halacha. I think it's insulting to say they don't know better.
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#BestBubby




 
 
 
 

Post Mon, May 03 2021, 12:26 pm
amother [ Lawngreen ] wrote:
If so, just say your relatives are not as religious. End of story.
ETA - unless you think they will be insulted by this. Some would. It depends on their style. Personally, I am on the liberal side of modern orthodoxy and wouldn't mind if someone said I was less religious. I consider myself less religious. But there are those who believe they are just as religious but in a different way - and they might be insulted.
You need to know who you are dealing with.


Kudus Lawngreen.

I think answering we are less religious is a great answer because it is honest and leaves
open the possibility that we may increase our observance in the future.

When one falsely claims that they are Just as Religious, one is closing the door on improvement.

I try to do the same and admit "I am not holding there....yet."

Or "I am not on that madreiga."

Instead of putting down those more religious than I.

PS I have children who are more religious than I, and I am proud - not insulted.


Last edited by #BestBubby on Mon, May 03 2021, 12:36 pm; edited 1 time in total
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#BestBubby




 
 
 
 

Post Mon, May 03 2021, 12:29 pm
juggling wrote:
This doesn't work in all cases, though. In OP's case she's talking about people who keep shabbos and kashrus and learn in Jewish schools, but they don't dress according to halacha. I think it's insulting to say they don't know better.


It is more insulting to say they know better and are sinning "b'meizid."

Even if they know the Halachah, obviously they don't appreciate how important it is
so it is not a lie to say they don't know better.
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singleagain




 
 
 
 

Post Mon, May 03 2021, 12:30 pm
Something like tznuit has a lot of room for everyone being right. It's not an all or nothing. Tznuits is not black and white.
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#BestBubby




 
 
 
 

Post Mon, May 03 2021, 12:34 pm
amother [ Chocolate ] wrote:
It does not have to be condescending- as a bt I can tell you it is the truth that we did not know any better and did not have the benefit of frum education.


THIS!

People are LUCKY to have more religious parents or yeshivas and do not "condescend"
because had they been born in a less religious environment who says they would be better.

I would tell my kids that the best way to be m'karev to yiddishkeit is to be respectful and friendly
and make a Kiddush Hashem with good middos.
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amother




OP
 

Post Mon, May 03 2021, 12:35 pm
juggling wrote:
This doesn't work in all cases, though. In OP's case she's talking about people who keep shabbos and kashrus and learn in Jewish schools, but they don't dress according to halacha. I think it's insulting to say they don't know better.


This
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juggling




 
 
 
 

Post Mon, May 03 2021, 12:41 pm
#BestBubby wrote:
It is more insulting to say they know better and are sinning "b'meizid."

Even if they know the Halachah, obviously they don't appreciate how important it is
so it is not a lie to say they don't know better.

It's not about whether it's a lie. It's condescending. I assume you wouldn't say that to their face, right? Then don't say it behind their backs, either.

Honestly it's condescending to say that your truth is the only truth, and if only people would open their eyes everyone would believe like you do. You can believe in your own truth, and even believe it to be the ultimate truth, while still understanding that not everyone sees things that way.
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amother




Salmon
 

Post Mon, May 03 2021, 12:49 pm
My response to my child of any age would be:

“Not everyone knows what they’re supposed to do (that’s for those who really don’t know better) and some do know but they have a big yetzer hora for certain things. Just like we might be better in tznius but not great at blank. So we don’t judge anyone. And we hope no one judges us. We all try the best we can with the tools and education we have” end of story.

I think this is the honest truth and only an honest answer will be accepted by my kids. A vague answer like “they do things differently“ wouldn’t work in my home.
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saw50st8




 
 
 
 

Post Mon, May 03 2021, 1:00 pm
Hi Op, I'm the "less religious" family compared to some of my relatives (not what we think, what they think) and "more religious" than other parts of my family (also not what we think).

If it is family that you want to keep a good relationship, I'd recommend keeping it very pareve. If I heard my relatives saying things like "They just don't know better" or something to that effect to their kids, that would automatically place a barrier between us. It has nothing to do with what our religious differences are, it has to do with respect. I think that it is important not only with halachic issues but overall. Every family does different things, some that we don't necessarily consider ok for our family but that they consider ok for themselves.
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juggling




 
 
 
 

Post Mon, May 03 2021, 1:01 pm
saw50st8 wrote:
Hi Op, I'm the "less religious" family compared to some of my relatives (not what we think, what they think) and "more religious" than other parts of my family (also not what we think).

If it is family that you want to keep a good relationship, I'd recommend keeping it very pareve. If I heard my relatives saying things like "They just don't know better" or something to that effect to their kids, that would automatically place a barrier between us. It has nothing to do with what our religious differences are, it has to do with respect. I think that it is important not only with halachic issues but overall. Every family does different things, some that we don't necessarily consider ok for our family but that they consider ok for themselves.

Exactly!
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tichellady




 
 
 
 

Post Mon, May 03 2021, 1:09 pm
#BestBubby wrote:
Kudus Lawngreen.

I think answering we are less religious is a great answer because it is honest and leaves
open the possibility that we may increase our observance in the future.

When one falsely claims that they are Just as Religious, one is closing the door on improvement.

I try to do the same and admit "I am not holding there....yet."

Or "I am not on that madreiga."

Instead of putting down those more religious than I.

PS I have children who are more religious than I, and I am proud - not insulted.


Not everything when it comes to dressing differently means less religious. I don’t think wearing more clothing, wearing a wig or wearing tights makes you more religious. I don’t think the obsession in some communities about what girls and ladies can or cannot wear is more religious.
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#BestBubby




 
 
 
 

Post Mon, May 03 2021, 1:15 pm
tichellady wrote:
Not everything when it comes to dressing differently means less religious. I don’t think wearing more clothing, wearing a wig or wearing tights makes you more religious. I don’t think the obsession in some communities about what girls and ladies can or cannot wear is more religious.


In this case, where OP said relatives wear shorts and bikinis in front of men, it means less religious -
or at least, less tzinius.

Even though I don't dress "extreme" tzinius, I respect those who do and consider it "more" religious.

When I read biographies of Rebbitzens, they dressed on a higher level of tzinius than I.

I am sure the Imahos dressed more tzinius than I.

I don't CONDESCEND and call it an "OBSESSION".
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Ema of 4




 
 
 
 

Post Mon, May 03 2021, 3:49 pm
#BestBubby wrote:
In this case, where OP said relatives wear shorts and bikinis in front of men, it means less religious -
or at least, less tzinius.

Even though I don't dress "extreme" tzinius, I respect those who do and consider it "more" religious.

When I read biographies of Rebbitzens, they dressed on a higher level of tzinius than I.

I am sure the Imahos dressed more tzinius than I.

I don't CONDESCEND and call it an "OBSESSION".

But you don’t want to tell your kids that relatives are less religious, because it could either (1) lead to the kids looking down on the relatives, or (2) one of the kids could say something about the other relatives being less religious, and that could cause big issues.
Not everything that is true needs to be said, sometimes it’s better to leave things out and be neutral.
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amother




Chocolate
 

Post Mon, May 03 2021, 3:53 pm
Again I’d say the truth “I don’t know. We do what our rov poskens”.
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Shuly




 
 
 
 

Post Mon, May 03 2021, 4:52 pm
Shuly wrote:
Please don't legitimize people not following halacha - that's the opposite of chinuch.

Either say I don't know or say:
They didn't get to go to a yeshiva/bais yaakov like you do so they didn't learn what the Torah says about tznius. It's sad for them that they don't get to do this mitzvah but we don't want to make them feel bad about so we won't mention it to them.
B"H you get to keep the mitzvah of tznius and we're so proud of you!


For those who think I was never in this situation - I do not have a single religious first cousin.

Interestingly, our only frum (distant) relatives were Satmar and Bobov so I was exposed to a funny range of relatives growing up - including a family of non-Jewish cousins due to their father intermarrying.

The OP didn't ask what to say about relatives who don't wear sock when her kids wear tights. She said completely not tznius.

There is nothing wrong with raising children with values. Of course, we daven that our cousins should learn Torah and we don't make them feel bad but Ashreinu Mah Tov Chelkeinu - we are so lucky to have the Torah guiding us.
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behappy2




 
 
 
 

Post Mon, May 03 2021, 5:17 pm
"Bec they think it's ok. "

If kid says why don't we I would answer "bec we don't think it's ok. "

That's usually the truth.

This opens a child's mind to understanding grey areas of life and makes them think.
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amother




Forestgreen
 

Post Mon, May 03 2021, 5:32 pm
Funny story.

My sister doesn't dress tznius, my kids have never really asked me about it but I remember one time when she ate over Friday night my son told over his dvar torah, saying jacob and issac and gd. Lol.
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fmt4




 
 
 
 

Post Mon, May 03 2021, 5:35 pm
Shuly wrote:
For those who think I was never in this situation - I do not have a single religious first cousin.

Interestingly, our only frum (distant) relatives were Satmar and Bobov so I was exposed to a funny range of relatives growing up - including a family of non-Jewish cousins due to their father intermarrying.

The OP didn't ask what to say about relatives who don't wear sock when her kids wear tights. She said completely not tznius.

There is nothing wrong with raising children with values. Of course, we daven that our cousins should learn Torah and we don't make them feel bad but Ashreinu Mah Tov Chelkeinu - we are so lucky to have the Torah guiding us.


There are different kinds of values. It’s also a value to not teach your child to feel superior to others and put others down in front of them.
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Shuly




 
 
 
 

Post Mon, May 03 2021, 5:39 pm
fmt4 wrote:
There are different kinds of values. It’s also a value to not teach your child to feel superior to others and put others down in front of them.


Where did I say that you should teach them to "put others down in front of them?"

I said the exact opposite of that.
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LovesHashem




 
 
 
 

Post Mon, May 03 2021, 6:00 pm
I'd say the Torah says girls must wear skirts.
I'd also say according to the Torah it's assur to embaress or hurt another. It's also assur to rebuke someone unless in specific circumstances. I would also add the Torah also says it's assur to judge someone as well.

I would tell them how we don't tell other people what to do and we love everyone no matter how they dress. It's not our place to tell others what to do. Or judge or look at them differently.
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