Would you be happy if

amother

Amber

Mon, May 24 2021, 2:07 pm

I would be if I knew the learner was a serious learner (and not just only learning bec that "what's done" in his community for the first bunch of yrs of marriage or bec it's easier then getting a job...)

amother

Seagreen

Mon, May 24 2021, 2:09 pm

moonstone wrote:

Absolutely not.

I was going to hug you, but thought it might be taken as a dislike.

amother

Mauve

Mon, May 24 2021, 2:31 pm

No.
I don’t believe in the Kollel model. Talmud Torah is important, but IMO learning full time and being supported by others is for the few gedoli hador, and they are the ones writing responsa, giving psak halacha, and addressing changes in the world and how they impact/are impacted by Torah (lace wigs for example), and they teaching others (either classes or books). I strongly believe in a concept of Torah im Derech Eretz. I have no problem with paying Rebbeyim well and them spending 1/2 their day learning and 1/2 their day teaching.
The Rambam was a doctor (as was the Ramban). Rashi earned his living as a vintor.
I don’t think that Kollel is what is wanted from us.

I am happy to give my tzedaka to those who are UNABLE (not I willing) to support themselves. To medical, to Bonei Olam, to education, to programming, ensuring safety, to helping those who need help (think the Holocaust survivor, victim or terror or other tragedy, someone who is sick or just honestly down on their mazel.)

amother

Yellow

Mon, May 24 2021, 2:44 pm

miami85 wrote:

Bnei Yisroel once had a built-in system, it was known as the "Yissochar-Zevulun" partnership. Yissochar was the working shevet and they supported Torah learning of Zevulun. Once upon a time the only shevatim who learned regularly were Zevulun and Levi. In other words, 2/12 or 1/6th. The other shevatim were involved in some sort of business--merchants, daily wares, teachers, or farmers.

The modern-day kollel system was an attempt to push boys with aptitude for learning towards kollel because SO many were headed for college and business. It became SO popular with such an enticing spiritual sales-pitch that we now have MORE than 1/6th of Jews that want to sit and learn--at least for a few years. Many more perhaps SHOULD go out and get a profession. My husband learned for a number of years, got smicha and while he'd like to be doing something along the lines of klei kodesh, he's working a 9-5 job and making a reasonable wage. But for those who can't learn, they should be eager to support those in learning and not see it as "not earning a living" but being part of the 1/6th that is sustaining the world.

Just wanted to make a correction. Yissachar was the learning shevet, supported by Zevullun...Weighing in, I think Torah learning is important, but I think too many people who aren't suited to it are expected to go into the system. Imagine if we had a society where we strongly encouraged the majority of people to become physicians? Not everyone has the capability, the desire, or support to do so. In general I'm against the one size fits all approach in many frum communities.

the world's best mom

Mon, May 24 2021, 2:48 pm

I'd be thrilled to support a serious Torah learner and his family.

A1MUM

Mon, May 24 2021, 2:51 pm

for sure

miami85

Mon, May 24 2021, 5:01 pm

amother [ Yellow ] wrote:

Thank you, I misspoke.

I do agree that it's become too much of a sales pitch--maybe the equivalent l'havdil to the housing market crisis of 2008--when there were too many subprime mortgages and the bubble burst with people who couldnt' afford houses were stuck with mortgages that they couldn't afford in the name of the American promise of home ownership. Once upon a time, there was such a dearth that there had to be a strong sales pitch--and it IS the Jewish ideal, so it's hard to say "sure it's ok to go to college"--especially considering the crum hashkafos being promulgated there, but now there's becoming a dearth of "baalei batim" to support them. I don't know what the answer is.

amother

Olive

Mon, May 24 2021, 5:12 pm

when my nephew was younger he told me the baalei teshuva will support. My dh is a baal teshuva who works but he would NOT appreciate such a sentiment... my nephew is now older, would be interested to see what he thinks in a few years...

Rising

Mon, May 24 2021, 5:13 pm

Yes.

Ravenclaw

Mon, May 24 2021, 5:42 pm

lamplighter wrote:

I do support Torah learning but I would give my tzedaka money to emergency unavoidable circumstances before a lifestyle choice. Maybe if I had lots of money my answer would be different.

Same