Aren't you happy? (warning, a bit long)

amother

Sun, Mar 23 2008, 9:43 am

Last night my dh said to me, "You know, I wonder what high school girls do during Purim..." (Meaning the boys go out collecting, drink a little and have a blast in the streets singing and dancing...)

My guess: Helping mom with the seudah, delivering Shaloch Manot...basically working, like all other holidays.

I said to him, you know, Judaism for women and for men is very different. There really aren't "fun" times for women. Maybe in the times of the Beis HaMikdash there were more opportunities, more space for women (I think) but nowadays women's ability to display simcha is extremely limited. From what I have experienced, a woman's simcha has no place for exuberent expression, and it is HARD.

Purim, Simchas Torah...these holidays the men have a lot of fun, I said, "and you know what fun a woman gets to have on simchas Torah...Watching her husband and kids dance." On the whole most holidays mean more work.

He said, well is it better to be secular. Judaism is a great religion for women. Look at the family structure that is built in.

Yes, we get security. No question about that. But hey, if I was secular, I wouldn't be cooking a feast every single week!

I am not saying that I don't want to be frum. I made a decision a long time ago that this was the right way to live my life, and I meant it. That doesn't mean it is always easy, that doesn't mean I love every aspect. Heck, that doesn't even mean I agree with everything hashkafically. But that doesn't mean I am going to go out and go against it.

He started to tell me that he understood and I just looked at him and said: You can't understand. You can never understand. I am not saying I want to be obligated to go to Shul 3 times a day, but you are never trapped in the house for an entire Shabbas or if you do go out it is being trailed by a bunch of little people, whom it takes a half an hour or more to dress just to go out so it isn't even worth the effort half the time! (and trapped because for more than half the year the weather isn't nice enough to go out easily or you don't live in an eruv).

Don't get me wrong I had a lovely Purim, but shaloch manot and a seudah and making sure to get to Megilah reading which my community didn't even make easy to figure out when I could go...It's stressful and its hard and lookee here, Pesach only a few weeks away!

___________________

It's a vent yes, But doesn anyone else understand how I feel????

shabbatiscoming

Sun, Mar 23 2008, 9:53 am

amother wrote:

I guess that it all depends on your outlook on life and what expect from a husband.
when I read about simchat torah, at first I also got upset, but then I remembered that growing up, there were many women in shul that would get a group together and dance in the woman's section. that can be done, why not?
and as for purim, why can a man not help make and / or put together the mishloach manot? am I missing something?
if you and your husband talk about this and you come up with ways that you would not feel like judaism is very limited for women to display simcha, I am sure that you would come up with ways that a woman could as well.
I also think that women and men just display simcha in different ways, thats all.

amother

Sun, Mar 23 2008, 10:00 am

OP here

Just to clarify, my husban did help, but for some reason, his helping needed to include a lot of my directing--because he kept asking me what he should do and that is just as much work for me as doing it myself sometimes.

As for Simchat Torah. I used to love going to shuls where the women danced, but they are, Ihave found, extremely hard to find. The women dance for like five minutes and then it dies out. Also, with my little kids, it isn't so easy to dance because they won't all stay with tatty and one of them has issues with crowds....

In reality, I enjoy going to shul on Simchas torah and shmoozing with my friends and seeing eveyrone all deckout (the little kids not the moms) and such, but that part of the conversation was to emphasize to my husband that a guy's life and a ga;'s life are quite different.

Ruchel

Sun, Mar 23 2008, 10:14 am

Quote:

Last night my dh said to me, "You know, I wonder what high school girls do during Purim..." (Meaning the boys go out collecting, drink a little and have a blast in the streets singing and dancing...)

are you sure you don't read into it too much? I rarely see boys singing and dancing in the streets even on Purim...

Quote:

My guess: Helping mom with the seudah, delivering Shaloch Manot...basically working, like all other holidays.

In my circles either the kids don't help, or they all help. If girls are working on all holidays, you should talk to other women and try to change that.

Quote:

You should create these opportunities if they aren't there, even if it requires events for women only (if mixed isn't done in your circles).

Quote:

Purim, Simchas Torah...these holidays the men have a lot of fun, I said, "and you know what fun a woman gets to have on simchas Torah...Watching her husband and kids dance." On the whole most holidays mean more work.

agree about dancing, although some say the women dance too in their shul.
More work should mean more help, or being more relaxed. My rabbi doesn't allow women to just work and come to resent the holidays. He says it' better to do the bare minimum and have fun.

Quote:

Yes, we get security. No question about that. But hey, if I was secular, I wouldn't be cooking a feast every single week!

then, don't. Order, take out, get help... no one I know makes a feast every week.

Quote:

you are never trapped in the house for an entire Shabbas

and trapped because for more than half the year the weather isn't nice enough to go out easily or you don't live in an eruv).

yes this is a HUGE problem. Many women tell me shabbes isn't nice for them, and I can't say I really enjoy either.
Could dh stay with the non walking kids every other week (after shul) so you can go out?

bigdeal

Sun, Mar 23 2008, 10:31 am

shabbatiscoming wrote:

bigdeal wrote:

see I dont have issue with working hard- My issue is that the men get to dance nad have fun- on Purim and Smchas Torah... and we have to stand around like idiots smiling ... I WANNA GO NUTS TOO!!!!! ( those are thetwo Yomim Tovim a year I wouldnt mind being a man)

but I dont understand, why cant you also go nuts like the men?

simchat torah, start a dancing circle in your shul and keep it going.

purim, have ALL of your kids help that way you get to enjoy as well.

I really am not seeing the big deal here, sorry.

[img][

First of all , the shul I go to to hear Megilla- isnt my shul- its a neighborhood shul with megilla evry half hour I dont know anyone there- plus its notjust shul... its the whole Yom Tov- the boys have fun dancing, partying come on!!! WE have to stand there lookin pretty and tittering.....( simcahs Torah too) AND I said- that I would rather be a man on THOSE yomim tovim... I as in ME......... [/img]

shabbatiscoming

Sun, Mar 23 2008, 10:48 am

bigdeal wrote:

shabbatiscoming wrote:

bigdeal wrote:

but what I am saying is why cant you (as in the collective you who feellike these are mens chagim) make somethin for women to be misameach as well? its not so hard. then you dont just have to stand around.

HindaRochel

Sun, Mar 23 2008, 11:28 am

[quote="amother"]

Quote:

My guess: Helping mom with the seudah, delivering Shaloch Manot...basically working, like all other holidays.

My husband and boys use to be the ones delivering shaloch manot. And my children and husband do clean for Pesach. My husband clears the table on Shabbat...

I know a lot of men who work for the holidays. Maybe you need to talk to your dh and get him and your sons more involved in the work of the holidays.

Quote:

I said to him, you know, Judaism for women and for men is very different. There really aren't "fun" times for women. Maybe in the times of the Beis HaMikdash there were more opportunities, more space for women (I think) but nowadays women's ability to display simcha is extremely limited. From what I have experienced, a woman's simcha has no place for exuberent expression, and it is HARD.

Purim, Simchas Torah...these holidays the men have a lot of fun, I said, "and you know what fun a woman gets to have on simchas Torah...Watching her husband and kids dance." On the whole most holidays mean more work.

This is a big problem for many women. The antidote is to sing and dance in the women's section or start something for women. I'm not a big dancer so it doesn't bother me. (Watching teh men drink themselves silly isn't entertaining, it is grotesque.)

Quote:

He said, well is it better to be secular. Judaism is a great religion for women. Look at the family structure that is built in.

Yes, we get security. No question about that. But hey, if I was secular, I wouldn't be cooking a feast every single week!

Cook less, enjoy the day more. You really don't need to cook a ten course meal, or even a three course meal, to enjoy yourself.

Quote:

I am not saying that I don't want to be frum. I made a decision a long time ago that this was the right way to live my life, and I meant it. That doesn't mean it is always easy, that doesn't mean I love every aspect. Heck, that doesn't even mean I agree with everything hashkafically. But that doesn't mean I am going to go out and go against it.

He started to tell me that he understood and I just looked at him and said: You can't understand. You can never understand. I am not saying I want to be obligated to go to Shul 3 times a day, but you are never trapped in the house for an entire Shabbas or if you do go out it is being trailed by a bunch of little people, whom it takes a half an hour or more to dress just to go out so it isn't even worth the effort half the time! (and trapped because for more than half the year the weather isn't nice enough to go out easily or you don't live in an eruv).

Little kids make it hard. But you have a dh and he can stay home some of that time as well, unless you are nursing. Even then you could at least get out for 1/2hr.

Quote:

Don't get me wrong I had a lovely Purim, but shaloch manot and a seudah and making sure to get to Megilah reading which my community didn't even make easy to figure out when I could go...It's stressful and its hard and lookee here, Pesach only a few weeks away!

___________________

It's a vent yes, But doesn anyone else understand how I feel????

Well again, I think you need to say to your dh, I can't do this all on my own. I need help.

Tonight dh will clean out the freezer for Pesach. I've given a wipe down of the stove, but the oven is basically his.

Work together so you both can enjoy yourselves.

cdawnr

Sun, Mar 23 2008, 11:37 am

shabbatiscoming wrote:

this was also an issue for me when I was single with Shavuot and learning...a bunch of women madea women's learning night for those who could go (there were lots of singles);. And guess what, after the first few years, the local rabbeim said that it wasn't so kosher becaue learning all night on Shavuot was a man's thing since learning was a mens obligation and the women were doing it to be like the men. By then I was married with a baby, so it didn't effect me any more (actually I could never stay up all night anyway!)

montrealmommy

Sun, Mar 23 2008, 1:43 pm

I agree with OP, I find many ifnot most of the Yom Tovim have a very different 'simcha' for men vs. women. Like cdawnr I also used to go to a women's Shavuos learning until it was discouraged.

For those who say 'start a women's dance in the women's section' - a) there isn't always room. b) some places (yes, I have been to one) frown on it as un tznius since fathers often come to bring kids back to mommy.

I woudn;t trade my skirt for tfillin anyday, but there is a lot of truth in the notion that YT for women is different than YT for men.

My dh helps a lot but being stuck in doors for hours on end, setting tables, serving food and doing it again and again does get tediuos and frustrating (esp. when the weather is less than condusive for playdates or just going outside!)

ChossidMom

Sun, Mar 23 2008, 3:06 pm

OP, I totally understand where you're coming from!!!!
Purim is one holiday that many women I know, hate. That may sound like a strong word but it's a hard chag all around. The planning, the costumes, the seudah. Serving food and watching the men and boys getting drunk and throwing up wherever. Alot of women have Purims like this. We don't as my dh barely drinks and we don't have what you would call a "fun" seudah. But I see what the seudahs are like at other's homes. Let's face it - it's a man's holiday.

Same with Simchas Torah. Yeah, sure, women can make a circle in shul and dance but PUHLEASE. Zeh lo Zeh.

I also can relate to how you feel with having a bunch of wee ones connected to you like an appendage B"H. I still have 2 little ones. This past Shabbos I had to go to a kiddush which was about 12-15 minutes away. I also had a 7 and 10 year old with me. It was really, really, hard to get there because every few minutes one of my little ones would decide to stop walking or to go to the park. ARGH!!! On the way home my 4 year old must not have felt well and she just sat down in the boiling hot sun and wouldn't move. I can't lift her. So I left my 12 year old with her and continued on home with an ornery/screaming 2 year old who didn't want to walk. Then I sent my husband to get her. I was fit to be tied.

But, you know what? This is as good as it gets, Girl. The men are the ones that are supposed to dance up a storm on Simchas Torah and do the drinking on Purim. Yes, we have to be the good wifeys that make the food, dress the kids and take them to the park, most of the time. That's just how God created the world. I think that as your kids get a bit older your life will get a bit easier physically. Emotionally is another story.
The bottom line is that we embrace motherhood and being a wife but it ain't easy sometimes and we get jealous of life "on the other side". Yeah, they have more "fun" but the obligations are tough too, so I'm not sure I would exchange jobs. One of the things I noticed after I got married is that I spent alot of my time WAITING for my husband to get home from - wherever. Then I heard once that a woman gets schar for waiting for her husband to come home from learning (and, I assume, davening too).

Sorry for rambling, but I just wanted you to know that I totally understand you and unlike everyone here who has suggestions about how to change the situation and try to become more like a man, I have no such suggestions. I just identify with you!