Aren't you happy? (warning, a bit long)

Clarissa

Mon, Mar 24 2008, 9:05 am

Fox wrote:

3. The feminist movement combined with the need for more women to find ways to earn income has lessened our regard for Jewish homemaking -- thus, we are less able to receive spiritual fulfillment from the cooking and entertaining elements of holidays. This, IMHO, is less true in most chassidish communities, but it is a significant problem in the yeshivish world.

Great post by Fox, but I'm going to quibble over this one little point. As a feminist with friends who are feminists, I want to say that we've experienced quite the opposite. The women I know totally embrace the "spiritual fulfillment" from the cooking and entertaining elements of the holidays. Unless they're completely overwhelmed by guests and obligations, the prep can be fun, creative and fulfilling. Over time, women, and some men, have seen the wonderful creative expression involved in creating meals for these occasions, and cooking is respected more in more in the world at large (there's a reality show called "Top Chef" that is all about it, and loads of popular cooking shows, not to mention a whole food channel) so it's not considered "less than," by some of us. My feminist friends and I are proud to be homemakers and are proud of our contributions to making these occasions special for family.

One little point that I mentioned before is that, when the demands are over-the-top and we get no help from our partners, it can just be exhausting and demeaning, and it seems that we are given the less joyful and prestigious role in Jewish life. I have a relative who is perpetually exhausted, as her home is open to all for every occasion and she juggles work and family. I'll admit I take more control over these things so I don't feel miserable, tired and resentful.

I know I went off on a huge tangent here. Didn't mean to. I guess I just feel that the constant remarks on Imamother about feminists and "women's libbers" (a term that was out by 1972 but still seems to live on in posts here) ignores the fact that being a feminist doesn't detract from being a Jewish wife and mother.

Speech over.

Ruchel

Mon, Mar 24 2008, 9:18 am

Quote:

We are expected to be wives and mothers and be fulfilled in that.

sure, but I never learned you couldn't do other things to

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The usual our job is to "save our husbands from sin and to raise their children" business.

this is the definition I think in the Talmud of why a man should treat well his wife even if there is no love.
I don't think most frum couples are as loveless as that.

Quote:

But most men that we are married to don't spend their days in physical labor that is physically harder than what we do, hence our expectations and reality get squewered somewhere.

men who don't come home exhausted help at home

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Women work. Men enjoy. Women enjoy when men are out of the house and the kids are older. Wait, it will happen.

this is so sad... and so weird. Men enjoy? they worked like crazy. Stress from their business, hard to find a job, some had to work on shabbes!!
The only older person who described to me that women enjoy when the man is not there was the child of a broken home.

I agree that the solution is definitely not copying men just to copy them. The solution is to make your life as nice and easy as possible within halacha. Not allowing people to take advantage. Not be a martyr and call it an eishes chayil. Not abandon your rights but keep your duties (enough of these "relations is a toyve for the husband", do something to enjoy YOUR right to ona and YOUR special time with your husband). Work on your couple, say what you think. Remember that on the long run you are only doing bad to your husband and children by not "existing". You are giving them a sad wife/mother, and teaching your daughters to go through the same. Stop caring about what the others do. Don't refuse help, but don't nag if things aren't done your way as long as they're done!
etc, etc.

gryp

Mon, Mar 24 2008, 9:21 am

After reading all the posts, I can only identify with the other Lubavitchers who posted. The men have their roles and we women have ours, and we help each other throughout each day to make sure everything we are responsible for is getting done.

To me, davening in a minyan three times a day, learning, and the other things men need to do each day is just as hard as my job of raising the kids properly.

Blossom

Mon, Mar 24 2008, 9:27 am

Quote:

I once asked my grandmother who was old enough to remember europe without running water, without electricity, with ten kids at home...and she answered. "you got it". Women work. Men enjoy. Women enjoy when men are out of the house and the kids are older. Wait, it will happen.

Freidasima your post was well written but I strongly disagree with this above statement. Men work very hard!!!! Working, Plus the going to shul 3 times a day, plus learning plus they have to help when they are home plus plus plus plus......
And I surely hope people are enjoying their life with their husband's home and while their kids are younger.

mimivan

Mon, Mar 24 2008, 9:29 am

GR wrote:

chayitty

Mon, Mar 24 2008, 9:39 am

I 100% agree with u guys...I wouldnt wanna be a man...but if ur the type that like to have fun, then on purim the men have more fun. not all woman njoy acting retarted but there r a nice amount that do. I dont think it has anything to do with wanting to switch roles with men in general and I dont think it has to do anything to do with men helping....men just have more fun cuz they dont have tznuis to worry about....basically its just a vent!!

Fox

Mon, Mar 24 2008, 10:19 am

Clarissa wrote:

I guess I just feel that the constant remarks on Imamother about feminists and "women's libbers" (a term that was out by 1972 but still seems to live on in posts here) ignores the fact that being a feminist doesn't detract from being a Jewish wife and mother.

Excellent clarification! While I wouldn't identify myself as a "feminist", it's very important to remember that both the first feminist movement (aimed at winning the right to vote) and the second feminist movement (in the 1960s & 1970s) were aimed at gaining rights for women that we in the Jewish community would have taken for granted.

My mother still tells about how banks refused to consider a woman's income if a couple applied for a mortgage -- thus, no single woman could ever own her own home. She also remembers one of her professors who automatically lowered the grades of female students by one full letter grade -- because he didn't believe women should attend post-secondary school.

When we speak pejoratively of the feminist movement, we tend to think of the ridiculous, over-the-top stuff -- not the fact that non-Jewish women have had to really fight for basic property rights, etc., that Jewish women have always enjoyed within our own communities. I have a feeling that most of us on this forum would be pretty outraged if we were magically transported back 60 years and had to suffer some of the day-to-day indignities that eventually led to a backlash.

Thanks, Clarissa!

amother

Mon, Mar 24 2008, 12:10 pm

amother wrote:

. Maybe in the times of the Beis HaMikdash there were more opportunities, more space for women (I think)

Me, I've davka always wondered what did the women do when the men were all doing their aliyah laregel thing? the mitzvah of aliyah laregel is on the males (shalosh paaamim bashanah yeraeh kol zechurcha), and in any case women who were pregnant, recently post-partum, tamei etc. would hardly be likely to be going far from home.

In my personal experience I've found that women's davening groups can supply exactly the kind of joyous experience you're talking about. It's women-only, so you can sing and dance to your heart's content. They're usually small, so you can be up close to the action and actually see and hear everything that's going on, and your participation makes a measurable contribution even if "all" you do is sing and dance (as opposed to taking a leadership role).

ChossidMom

Mon, Mar 24 2008, 1:28 pm

mimivan wrote:

ChossidMom wrote:

EXCUSE THE CAPS BUT MY KEYBOARD SCREWED UP.

I JUST WANTED TO SAY THAT I MIGHT HAVE TO BECOME LUBAVITCH. YOU GUYS HAVE SO MUCH FUN !!! OR AT LEAST THAT'S HOW YOU MAKE IT SOUND...

You don't have to become Lubavitch to come to a Lubavitch farbrengan...Maybe you can join us in Yirushalaim for one?

I'D LOVE TO! BUT DO I HAVE TO BELIEVE THAT YOU KNOW WHO IS YOU KNOW WHAT?

Ruchel

Mon, Mar 24 2008, 1:32 pm

ChossidMom wrote:

mimivan wrote:

ChossidMom wrote:

EXCUSE THE CAPS BUT MY KEYBOARD SCREWED UP.

I JUST WANTED TO SAY THAT I MIGHT HAVE TO BECOME LUBAVITCH. YOU GUYS HAVE SO MUCH FUN !!! OR AT LEAST THAT'S HOW YOU MAKE IT SOUND...

You don't have to become Lubavitch to come to a Lubavitch farbrengan...Maybe you can join us in Yirushalaim for one?

I'D LOVE TO! BUT DO I HAVE TO BELIEVE THAT YOU KNOW WHO IS YOU KNOW WHAT?

not in my experience
but you have to like the stories and don't say when you don't believe them or when you're bored

HindaRochel

Mon, Mar 24 2008, 1:34 pm

Fox wrote:

Clarissa wrote:

My mother still tells about how banks refused to consider a woman's income if a couple applied for a mortgage -- thus, no single woman could ever own her own home. She also remembers one of her professors who automatically lowered the grades of female students by one full letter grade -- because he didn't believe women should attend post-secondary school.

Thanks, Clarissa!

My mother, who got A's in all her other college classes, was flunked by one teacher who stated clearly, that he didn't think women belonged in architecture (or was it college).

grin

Mon, Mar 24 2008, 1:46 pm

grin wrote:

ChossidMom wrote:

I'D LOVE TO! BUT DO I HAVE TO BELIEVE THAT YOU KNOW WHO IS YOU KNOW WHAT?

???

Now I finally understand what you're trying to say. You made me laugh so hard my kids were worried about me! It was so far from my mind right now and so far from my own experiences at the kenasim. (altho the farbrengens can be different).

I you want to discuss the subject, be my guest - I'm all for it, but for that we'd have to open another thread.
But if you don't, just relax and enjoy the good company. You don't have to believe all of the stories either (even if it's true that everyone that asks in the igros has their own stories to tell, myself included), just like the rebbes have said that if you believe all the rebbeshe stories you're a fool, altho you should believe that they could have happened.