Mrs. On ben Peles | Imamother

b.chadash

Mon, Jun 14 2021, 7:36 pm

I came across this interesting post from Between Carpools discussing the question of Laura Doyle's book being consistent with Torah Hashkafa.
Interesting to read, especially the comments below the article.
https://betweencarpools.com/is.....lues/

b.chadash

Mon, Jun 14 2021, 7:54 pm

OOT wrote:

Maybe a sort of spin off, but I have struggled with this concept and would love to hear any insight that you ladies have to offer.
We are taught “ isha ksheira osah retzon ba’ala.”
Can anyone shed light on this statement in the context of this discussion?

I think this is a great question.

I found the following thoughtful essay that is exactly on this point. In fact, the author brings the identical examples that were brought up in this thread.

I don't know who the author is, but it's very well written and well sourced. The blog is called Myrtle Rising.

THE REAL MEANING BEHIND "THE KOSHER WOMAN PERFORMS THE WILL OF HER HUSBAND:

Unfortunately, the idea of “Ishah kashera osah ratzon baalah—A kosher wife does the will of her husband” has been used as a stick with which to club Jewish women over the head.

Twisting legitimate Jewish sources out of context is also a really good way to catapult people off the derech. If God comes off as so unfair and uncompassionate, and if Judaism really does hate and demean women, then it must all be neither true nor good, chas v'shalom.

Furthermore, any fool can see that merely following your husband blindly never guarantees blessing and marital harmony.
How many times have you seen submissive wives end up being browbeaten by their ungrateful husbands for their rest of their lives—despite their kowtowing to all his demands?
How many times have you seen women go along with their husband’s poor decisions under the impression that being an ishah kasherah will make everything work out in the end, only to find themselves in impossible situations, like children going off the derech and a whole slew of other problems that could have easily been prevented by NOT following the wishes of the misguided husband?
How many families do you know in which the children resent or outright reject their mother BECAUSE she catered to and supported their dysfunctional father under the impression that presenting a united front and blindly following his will (just like a good little kosher wifey!) would bring her blessing, no matter how dysfunctional and warped the family’s situation?

Finally, nearly all the great women featured in Tanach did NOT follow their husbands blindly.

Some even opposed their husband outright (like Sara Imeinu) or went behind his back (like Rivka Imeinu)—and all for the sake of Heaven, and not their own egos.

Others took a proactive approach to guide their husband on the right path (like Devorah as the wife of Lapidot) and still others acted in a combination of the above (like the wife of On ben Pelet).

The most seemingly submissive of the Torah's exemplary women was Queen Esther who followed Mordechai's every directive, but she did so not as his wife, but as a Jew following the wisdom of the gadol hador. Furthermore, she did question his judgement at one point, but quickly acquiesced - not out of blind obedience, but because she realized he was right.

Only Naomi blindly followed her husband (following him out of Eretz Yisrael to Moav) and the Sages criticize her for doing so!
__________________________
Anyway, most people who quote this verse have no idea of its context.

Perhaps they simply feel pious and helpful when they spew platitudes.

Anyway, there are two sources for this verse:
Tanna D’bei Eliyahu Rabbah 10
Gemara Nedarim 66b
The Kosher Wife of Tanna D’bei Eliyahu Rabbah 10
In Tanna D’bei Eliyahu Rabbah 10, the verse comes at the end of a series of verses that discuss the reasons for the greatness of different Torah personalities.

And it starts off with...Devorah Hanaviah:
ודבורה אשה נביאה (שופטים ד-ד) וכי מה טיבה של דבורה שהיא שפטה את ישראל ומתנבאת עליהם,הלא פנחס בן אלעזר עומד? מעיד אני עלי את השמים ואת הארץ,בין גוי ובין ישראל,בין איש ובין אשה,בין עבד בין שפחה הכל לפי מעשה שעושה-כך רוח הקודש שורה עליו
Devorah was a woman prophetess (Judges 4:4): And what was the winning quality of Devorah in that she judged Yisrael and was prophesying over them? Didn’t Pinchas ben Elazar exist?

I bring the heavens and earth as witnesses to my testimony, whether a [gentile] or a Jew, whether a man or a woman, whether a male slave or a female slave:

Everything goes according to how one performs a deed—in this way, ruach hakodesh rests upon him.
Meaning, it doesn’t matter who or what you are, but how good you are.
You are defined by your deeds, not your status or gender or religion.

So far, so good, right?

Later on that same page, it says:
ומה נשתנו זבולון ונפתלי מכל השבטים כולם שבאתה תשועה גדולה לישראל על ידיהן?אמרו,נפתלי-שימש את יעקב אבינו ומצא הימנו קורת רוח. זבולון-ששימש את יששכר ועשה לו אכסנייה: ועל שבטח ברק באלוקי ישראל והאמין בנביאותה של דבורה,חלקו לו בשירה עמה, שנאמר: ותשר דבורה וברק בן אבינועם (שם ה פס׳ א) ויאמר אליה ברק אם תלכי עמי וגו׳ ותאמר הלוך אלך עמך וגו׳ שם ד פס׳ ח וט׳
And how were Zevulun and Naftali different from all the other Tribes for whom a great salvation was wrought to Yisrael through them? They said Naftali served Yaakov Avinu and found satisfaction. Zevulun served Yissachar and made for him a place of lodging. And because Barak trusted in the God of Yisrael and believed in the prophecy of Devorah, his portion is in song with her…
So because Barak listened to Devorah, he merited a place in her song, Shirat Devorah.

(Is this sounding misogynist yet? Didn’t think so.)

Immediately following this, the "infamous" verse finally appears:
ומה נשתנת אשת חבר הקיני מכל הנשים כולן שבאתה תשועה לישראל על ידיה? אמרו,אשה כשרה הייתה,ועושה רצון בעלה הייתה. מכאן אמרו: אין אשה כשרה אלא העושה רצון בעלה
And how was the wife of Chever the Kinite [Yael] different than all the other women for whom a great salvation was wrought to Yisrael through her? They said: She was a kosher woman and she would do her husband’s will. And from here they said: There is no wife as kosher as one who does her husband’s will.
On the heels of this, a discussion among Sages follows in which the importance and necessity of having a wife is emphasized (“a helpmate to stand him on his feet and a helpmate to illuminate his eyes”) and enumerate a myriad of favors wives do for their husbands.

The Rebbe of Lubavitch wrote the following in Likutei Sichot regarding the above:
"איזוהי אשה כשרה? כל שעושה רצון בעלה" תנא דבי אליהו רבא פ"ט.
שני פירושים למאמר זה.
א. הבעל ברובו של היום אינו בבית, צריכה איפוא האשה "לעשות" את רצון בעלה - להוריד את הרצון לידי עשיה בפועל. לבעל יש רצונות טובים בעניני חינוך הילדים, הכנסת אורחים, נתינת צדקה וכדומה; אך ההוצאה לפועל של רצונות אלו תלויה באשה.
ב. לפעמים, צריכה האשה "לעשות" - ליצור - את רצון בעלה. כשהבעל טרוד מאד וחסר לו הרצון לעשות את הראוי, חייבת האשה, בדרכי נועם ובדרכי שלום, לעשות ולגלות את רצונו הפנימי של הבעל, שהרי כל יהודי רוצה לעשות רצון קונו...
(משיחת ש"פ בלק תשכ"ב - לקו"ש ד עמ' 1069)
English Translation (emphases mine-MR):
Every Jewish home is a world of its own in which is manifest all the Ten Sefiros.[296] Just as within the supernal Sefiros and within the powers of our soul, there is an advantage to Binah over Chochmah (despite the fact that Binah receives influence from Chochmah), so too, within the Jewish home, there is a dimension of supremacy to the woman's position.
And the woman's position in the home reflects the functioning of these Sefiros. The Sefirah of Binah receives influence from Chochmah, and conveys that influence to the emotional attributes. So too, a woman receives direction from her husband, as indicated by our Sages' statement:[297] "Who is a proper wife? One that fulfills her husband's will." Nevertheless, the actual functioning of the home including the education of the children, hospitality to guests, generous gifts to tzedakah and the like are all the women's province.
A man is not at home during the major part of the day. He is busy with Torah study and prayer, or earning a livelihood. For his will to be "fulfilled," manifest in actual life, he must rely on his "proper wife."
Moreover, the Hebrew word translated as "fulfilled" osah also means "make." At times, a "proper wife" "makes her husband's will."[298] For there are times when the pressures and difficulties he faces drain him, and hinder him from desiring the correct things. At that time, "his proper wife" should in a gentle and pleasant manner mold her husband's will, coaxing to the surface the desire to fulfill G-d's will that lies within the heart of every Jew.[299]
"When a husband and wife are worthy, the Divine Presence rests among them."[300] When a Jewish home is conducted as "a Sanctuary in microcosm,"[301] the Divine Presence rests within. And since the "Divine Presence rests within," "no evil will dwell among you."[302] On the contrary, He will grant only good, overt and apparent good, as manifest in abundant blessings for children, health, and prosperity.
So the word "osah" can mean do, perform, manifest, or make. It depends.

Regardless, we see nothing here commanding a woman to be a blind, subservient slave to her husband’s every whim.

Now, let’s go on to the Gemara Nedarim 66b.
The Kosher Wife of Gemara Nedarim 66b
Here's the story so many women secretly and mistakenly hate:
בר בבל דסליק לארעא דישראל נסיב איתתא אמר לה בשילי לי תרי טלפי בשילה ליה תרי טלפי רתח עלה למחר אמר לה בשילי לי גריוא בשילה ליה גריוא אמר לה זילי אייתי לי תרי בוציני אזלת ואייתי ליה תרי שרגי אמר לה זילי תברי יתהון על רישא דבבא הוה יתיב בבא בן בוטא אבבא וקא דאין דינא אזלת ותברת יתהון על רישיה אמר לה מה הדין דעבדת אמרה ליה כך ציוני בעלי אמר את עשית רצון בעליך המקום יוציא ממך שני בנים כבבא בן בוטא
[נדרים, סו ב].

A Babylonian [Jew] went up to Eretz Yisrael.
He married a woman.
He said to her, "Cook for me 2 lentils" [meaning, a small amount of lentils].
She cooked for him 2 lentils [literally].
He got hotly angry at her.
The next day, he said to her, “Cook for me a large amount.”
She cooked for him a large amount [an enormous amount that one person could not possibly eat all of]
He said to her, “Go, bring me 2 בוציני/watermelons/squash/zucchinis.”
[This was the meaning of בוציני in Babylonian Aramaic.]
She went and brought him 2 candles/lamps. [Which is what בוציני meant in Eretz Yisrael’s Aramaic]
[At this point, he gets very frustrated and lashes out in sarcasm.] “Go break them on the head of the gate!”
Baba ben Buta was sitting at the gate and he was judging Jewish law and she broke them on his head.
He said, “What is this you have done?”
She said to him, “My husband commanded me thus.”
He said, “You have done the will of your husband. May God bring out from you 2 sons like Baba ben Buta.” [Meaning that he blessed her to merit to 2 sons like this tremendous Sage.]
Now, aside from the fact that English translations of the Gemara always come out as highly amusing, a superficial reading of the above makes it sound like you can sin however you want as long as you are sinning on the command of your husband.

But that’s not so.

(After all, that excuse didn’t let Naomi off the hook, did it?)

If you look at this story within the context of the rest of the daf, you’ll see that it is merely one in a series of stories demonstrating the self-nullification and humility of the Sages, especially for the sake of others’ shalom bayit/marital harmony.

Meaning, the focus and point of this story is to show how far an other people should go to facilitate harmony between a husband and wife. It is also a lesson in Azamra, as with the other stories in this daf, of the act of finding a merit within otherwise appalling behavior or an otherwise repellent person.

And in response to her abusive, degrading behavior, he blessed her!
(Which is exactly what true tzaddikim do, not because they are suckers, but because they realize that a knucklehead is merely an agent of God, and not acting completely on his or her own.)

In fact, the Ran comments:
שני בנים כבבא - כנגד תרין שרגי ואייתי הכא האי עובדא לאשמועינן חסידותיה דבבא בן בוטא כי היכי דאייתי הכא עובדא דרבן שמעון בן גמליאל ודרבי ישמעאל
Two sons like Baba: Like two lights and it brings here this story to teach of of the piety of Baba ben Buta, as was with the story of Rabban Shimon ben Gamliel and Rebbi Yishmael [the other two Sages on this same daf who also displayed humility and goodness regarding the shalom bayit of others].
So again, its main lesson is about the spiritual greatness of the Sages.

For example, if some lady just came up and hit me on the head with two candles (or lamps, as the case may be) for no apparent reason as I was trying to teach fellow Jews halacha, I can’t imagine I would just ask her why she has done that. On the contrary, I imagine myself grabbing the candles out of her hand and breaking them, or yelling at her, or calling for help, or bursting into tears. I certainly wouldn’t respond with equanimity and then find a merit in her behavior.

See? That's why we follow the Sages' example and not mine.

Needless to say, there are still many questions on this story.
Was the woman genuinely unintelligent or was she passive-aggressive?
Did she really think her husband wanted her to knock one of the gadolei hador on the head?
Did she honestly think such a thing was permissible? (I mean, I cannot imagine myself going up to Rav Kanievsky and whacking him on the head with the excuse, “Well, my husband said I really should.”
It's mortifying for the husband for his wife to publicly assault a Sage and then state that her husband told her do so...THAT couldn't possibly have been his will!

The other commentators, like Tosfot and Rashi simply explain that the husband spoke out of anger and the wife understood him to mean something different than he actually meant (meaning that she was acting out of misunderstanding, not craftiness).

Really, the way the mefarshim describe it, it sounds more like a lesson to husbands not to say sarcastic things to their wives in the heat of anger.
The Pele Yoetz and Others on This Verse
To be completely upfront, the Pele Yoetz does bring this verse as a guide to women, and other rabbis also do. Yet the Pele Yoetz also uses it within the context of presenting a whole variety of options to women throughout his book. He doesn’t call upon wives to follow their husbands blindly, and he certainly doesn’t permit a wife to sin at the behest of her husband. On the contrary, he encourages women to defend their own rights in a nurturing and tactful way, and not merely capitulate to the whims of their husband, both for her own convenience and especially for his spiritual benefit, like to save him from Gehinnom.
Final Lessons from the Sages about a Wife & Her Husband's Will
So to sum up how a woman should understand the concept of "A kosher woman performs the will of her husband":

It depends.
Sometimes a woman must be assertive against her husband (for his own good).
Sometimes a woman needs to influence her husband against the will of his seichel and emotions to fulfill the deeper will of his soul.
Sometimes a woman needs to nurture and fulfill her husband's wishes when he can't.
Sometimes a woman needs to follow his opinion in opposition to her own.

A woman needs to use her chachmah and binah, her wisdom and insight, to decide upon the best course of action in regard to her husband.

Blind subservience has no place in a Jewish marriage; Chazal is clear about this.

Involving God via lots of prayer and heart-to-heart talks help the most with developing proper chachmah and binah.
___________
And please don't forget the other big lesson from this Gemara:
Forgo your own kavod for the sake of another couple's shalom bayit!
__________
And the final lesson?

For the love of God, PLEASE STOP WARPING THE WORDS OF THE SAGES AND THE TORAH TO SERVE AS A BATTERING RAM FOR YOUR OWN AGENDA AND EGO!

Actually, dear reader - no offense to you personally. YOU are probably not the one warping things around...
In Closing...
Well, I hope this clarifies things. My Aramaic is pretty poor, but I did the best I could and my husband generously helped me when he was available to do so. (He learns full-time and works almost full-time, so his time at home is understandably limited.)

It would’ve been much better if someone genuinely qualified to understand Gemara would have taken this on, but I just never saw that anyone did.
(And yes, I asked a couple of people about this.)
If you're qualified to know, then please hop aboard and correct or add onto anything written here.
__________
And the next time someone tries to use this wonderful concept to shame you or confuse you or demean you or make God and Judaism look bad, you’ll know how they’re wrong and why.

May we all merit true understanding of the words of our Torah and our Sages.

Last edited by b.chadash on Mon, Jun 14 2021, 9:59 pm; edited 1 time in total

sweet3

Mon, Jun 14 2021, 7:56 pm

Do people here really think that women in the time of tanach had more independence than contemporary women?

OOT

Mon, Jun 14 2021, 8:23 pm

b.chadash, I appreciate your posting that article. It is very beautiful, specifically the ideas on the topic of chochma and Bina.
I think that in summation, the idea is that a kosher woman negates her own selfish will to that of her husband. But that when it comes to a disagreement where her husband’s position is not in consonance with Hashem’s will, then she stands her ground, and figures out how to get her way.
It’s essentially saying that a man’s ratzon IS to do Hashem’s ratzon, even if he himself doesn’t realize it at the time.
Actually, the story of Mrs. On is a perfect illustration of this idea.

just wondering

Mon, Jun 14 2021, 9:26 pm

there is no contradiction at all between all the chazals brought here to that of the "idea" of the book from Laura Doyle.
All the chazals that were brought here were exceptions to the rule!, the rule is אשה כשרה עושה רצון בעלה, but nothing is black and white so chazal teach us the exceptions to.

mazal555

Mon, Jun 14 2021, 9:34 pm

sweet3 wrote:

Do people here really think that women in the time of tanach had more independence than contemporary women?

In some ways, yes. I've never seen a divorce where the Bet Din made sure the woman got back EVERY asset that belonged to her before marriage and where the father had to pay child support for his daughters until they married but every dollar they earned over the age of 12.5 belonged to them. I've also never seen a bet din order a husband to pay his ex wife a salary to breastfeed or where she got the actual equivalent of 200 zuz (2 years living expenses in a lump sum)

Have you?

enneamom

Mon, Jun 14 2021, 9:42 pm

b.chadash wrote:

I discovered that blog too! Love it! If the author is on here, great blog!

b.chadash

Mon, Jun 14 2021, 9:56 pm

iyar wrote:

I'm with enneamom.
This thread is also reminding me of the story of Michal, David Hamelech's wife, when she criticized him for his overly enthusiastic dancing. I always found the way that ended very sad.

Interesting that Michal was brought up several times in this thread. Listen to this...

I mentioned earlier that in my search for understanding this, I listened to some shiurim on TorahAnytime on this topic.

Rav Eytan Feiner mentioned the following:
The passuk in Mishlei says "Chochmas Nashim Bansa Baysa, v'iveles beyadeha teharsenu". The wisdom of women builds a house and the foolish woman destroys hers with her hands.

The meforshim say the "wise woman" is the wife of On ben Peles. But wait, it doesn't say WOMAN. It says WOMEN. It says the wisdom of Nashim- in plural. By the foolish woman, it is singular. So it seems that there are TWO (or more) wise women who built their homes.

The Ramah Mipano (a mekubal) says that the second woman was MICHAL the daughter of Shaul, who also saved her husband's life. So why does Rashi only mention the wife of ON? Because, the Ramah Mipano says, Michal was an incarnation of Mrs. On. So they were two women, but really one.

What did Michal do? She risked her life to put a dummy of her husband in the bed while her husband escaped. Where did she get the courage to do this? Because she was the soul of Eishes On ben Peles.

(He goes on to say from the Arizal that she came back in a third gilgul as Kimchis who was misaken the aveirah of uncovering her hair by going to the opposite extreme and never uncovering even in her house.)

I'm just adding in my two cents here: It's interesting to think about this idea of Michal being the gilgul of Mrs. On when we think about her unsolicited advice to her husband years later. She seems to be comfortable with speaking her mind and telling Dovid that his dancing was inappropriate. This is the same person who was praised for saving his life earlier. But when we think that she is Mrs. On, we see that in her previous life she was successful in both advising her husband and saving his life. As Michal, while she did save his life in one incident, she was not correct in her rebuke in the second incident.

It's also interesting to me that she saved Dovid by putting a dummy in the bed, which is reminiscent of Mrs. On putting her husband to bed, thereby saving his life.

Last edited by b.chadash on Tue, Jun 15 2021, 2:18 pm; edited 3 times in total

b.chadash

Mon, Jun 14 2021, 10:24 pm

Chayalle wrote:

This might not resonate with many, but we were talking about this on Shabbos....
It reminded me of something I once heard from Rebbetzin Zehava Braunstein A"H. She said she always disliked the title Rebbetzin. She much preferred being called Mrs. because that was the area in life where she put the greatest effort.
Mrs. On Ben Peles's greatest achievement was as On's wife. She saved him from the greatest downfall. The title Mrs. is her greatest claim to fame, so that's what we are told about her. The Torah doesn't include anything extra, so we know what we need to know.

I think this is an excellent point.

iyar

Mon, Jun 14 2021, 10:43 pm

Interesting b.chadash about Michal. I’m sure it was a typo but Michal was the daughter of Shaul and the wife of David. Interesting also that her wisdom was so great but she got herself in trouble for telling off her husband when she shouldn’t have. Seems even very wise wives make marriage mistakes.

sweet3

Mon, Jun 14 2021, 10:53 pm

mazal555 wrote:

What kind of an independence is it when your Husband could marry another woman without your consent, when he can divorce you against your will but you can’t divorce him, when you don’t own anything as long as you’re married, when you can’t participate in most mitzvos, when your father is not allowed to learn Torah with you, when you are not trusted to serve as a witness in Bet Din, when your Husband can force you to live where he wants, and so on and so forth. I’d much rather have a contemporary life without the lousy 200 zuz than go back to a time when a wife was more like a servant than an independent decision maker.
My apologies to OP for diverting the discussion. Maybe we should open another thread on the subject.

b.chadash

Mon, Jun 14 2021, 10:57 pm

iyar wrote:

Thanks, I corrected the typo.

And yes, that's exactly what struck me. She may be credited as being the wise woman who saved her husband, but she was not infallible.
Life is pretty complicated like that.

b.chadash

Mon, Jun 14 2021, 11:41 pm

I just heard a short (14 minute) talk on the wisdom of Mrs. On vs. Mrs. Korach by Ari Goldwag.

He echoes many of the same ideas brought up here, but has a very beautiful conclusion.

He points out that Mrs. Korach seems to be the better wife of the two. She's one who encourages her husband to be all he can be, while Mrs. On seems to be the worse wife- the one who basically puts her husband down by telling him he's just a little "shnook", and nothing will change for him in this machlokes.
Worth a listen if you have 14 minutes (while washing dishes and such.)
https://www.torahanytime.com/#.....19298

imorethanamother

Tue, Jun 15 2021, 2:14 am

Maybe it’s just me but I’m just so tired of hearing that literally everyone in tanach is a gilgul of everyone else in tanach. Noach is also moshe who is also Rabbi Akiva who was also Avel.

To me, all this means is that the game is rigged. Only the previous tzadikim ever had a chance to be great. The rest of us are destined to be mediocre and amount to not much, all because we aren’t the same five people.

Why can’t we just say that Mrs. On was great, and also other women are great. We each have potential, because of our abilities as a neshama, not because of who we were in a former life.

b.chadash

Tue, Jun 15 2021, 9:04 am

imorethanamother wrote:

I never thought about it that way. However, if you think a past life makes the game rigged, you can say the same about any obvious advantage or disadvantage in people. Is the game rigged because some people are smarter, more naturally inclined to spirituality, or more charismatic? And on the reverse, some people are learning disabled, physically handicapped, or prone to violence.

In fact, for many people the idea of gilgulim resonates so deeply precisely because it helps us see that things are not random. It is a way to explain senseless death in young children and the suffering of a tzaddik. It helps us to see that there is a much bigger picture than what meets the eye. So for me, that is a comforting thought.

However, if you don't go for this stuff, you would be in good company. For the record, there is no mention of gilgul in the Torah or gemara. Rav Saadia Gaon and Rambam did not believe that Reincarnation is a Jewish belief. It is not one of the 13 ikrei emuna, so I don't think it would make you a heretic if you don't believe in reincarnation.

The Ramban however did strongly believe in it. Over the years, different sages took different positions, but it became very accepted in the 1500s, due to the teachings of the Arizal, and Rav Chaim Vital who wrote the Sha'ar Hagigulim. The Besht taught that today we are almost all gilgulim. And it seems like today everyone, even the Litvish world, accepts this.

I think practically speaking, we have to live our lives in the here and now without worrying about how we can be impacted by a previous life. No one today knows for sure who they were in previous lives.

In Torah too, we focus on the p'shat and rarely (if ever) delve into the mystical side of things. But once in a while, when we learn from great mekubalim about specific gilgulim, to me it enhances my understanding of so much of what we learn. It shows that all of Torah is one, everything is connected and there are many, many levels beyond the pshat.

Last edited by b.chadash on Tue, Jun 15 2021, 2:22 pm; edited 1 time in total

self-actualization

Tue, Jun 15 2021, 10:02 am

imorethanamother wrote:

Wow. So interesting. I heard that the first 40 years went to the Ramchal (who is buried next to Rabbi Akiva). The second 40 went to Rabbi Akiva who was active in Torah between ages 40-80, the third 40 went to Moshe Rabbenu who was active between 80-120. Now it seems like Noach also comes onto the stage - let me guess, he starts being active at 120?

sweet3

Tue, Jun 15 2021, 10:22 am

Reincarnation was invented by hinduism. It’s not a Jewish belief.

b.chadash

Tue, Jun 15 2021, 10:56 am

sweet3 wrote:

Reincarnation was invented by hinduism. It’s not a Jewish belief.

This would be consistent with what Rav Saadia Gaon said, though I think he said it comes from Islam.

However, this is an area of machlokes amongst the greats. As I wrote above, the Ramban believed in it, and so did the Arizal. Today it is considered an accepted belief in Judaism.

I recently heard a story, iirc, it was about the Chazon Ish standing up for a child with down syndrome. He explained that all children with down syndrome have very lofty neshamos who were big tzaddikim in their previous lives and needed to come back to rectify something small. (The Chazon ish was not a Chassid.)

Last edited by b.chadash on Tue, Jun 15 2021, 2:24 pm; edited 1 time in total

b.chadash

Tue, Jun 15 2021, 10:58 am

self-actualization wrote:

Rabbi Breitowitz just discussed this in this fascinating shiur: https://www.torahanytime.com/#.....53009

sweet3

Tue, Jun 15 2021, 11:18 am

b.chadash wrote:

This would be consistent with what Rav Saadia Gaon said, though I think he said it comes from Islam.

However, this is an area of machlokes amongst the greats. As I wrote above, the Ramban believed in it, and so did the Arizal. Today it is considered an accepted belief in Judaism.

I recently heard a story, iirc, it was about the Chazon Ish standing up for a child with down syndrome. He explained that all children with down syndrome children have very lofty neshamos who were big tzaddikim in their previous lives and needed to come back to rectify something small. (The Chazon ish was not a Chassid.)

You won’t find it in tanach, midrash, gemara, poskim and Halacha. Only in Kabalah.
It originated in Hinduism and somehow made its way to Judaism (perhaps through Islam like you mentioned) and then the later mekubalim adopted it.