If it was up to you where should they go? So

amother

Firethorn

Sun, Aug 01 2021, 10:58 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Yes me too, I am so shocked and sad

Jewish families are growing and multiplying so much bh ,wasn't that supposed to be a good thing?

Pulling the ahavas yisroel card has stopped having its effect. It's been used too often when legitimate concerns are raised, and people use this card try to sidestep the validity of the arguments. People tend to pull this card when they have no answer to the legitimate concerns, so they turn to trying to attack the people with such tactics.

Two things can exist simultaneously. Growing and multiplying in a beautiful fashion, while at the same time overcrowding places instead of moving out. One doesn't negate the other. The same goes for loving my fellow neighbor. I can welcome the individuals moving into my area, and love them all, but I can be upset at the overcrowding and overwhelming of my neighborhood.

So to answer your question - it's B"H a wonderful thing that we are growing so beautifully. But it is not a good thing that we push into places where there are no room for more people.

Both co-exist together.

amother

Topaz

Sun, Aug 01 2021, 10:59 am

amother [ Linen ] wrote:

I wish we'd be allowed to drive. But I don't think that us being allowed to drive would solve the issue. Chassidim will still want to stay in center of town. As long as housing is being built, move gezunterheit. But contribute to the community & schools instead of expecting to be served. Instead of complaining that they're not being accommodated with outstretched arms, be ready to contribute and put in the work.

I have no clue what your talking about but people that don’t drive are moving out Monsey has reached the NJ boarder suffern is filling up pearl river is full.

amother

Lightyellow

Sun, Aug 01 2021, 11:05 am

PinkFridge wrote:

But you have this. You have people moving to Manchester (Lakewood) and new suburbs of Monsey.

Here we go again. Manchester doesnt have Jewish shopping shuls jobs babysitting and schools, so all the people moving out to suburbs are driving through Lakewood traffic every day and competing for the few spots in school, all without contributing taxes to Lakewood township.

Also I dont think it's the Brooklyn crowd moving to Manchester, if I understand correctly it's the yeshiva people that are now priced out of Lakewood houses.

amother

Linen

Sun, Aug 01 2021, 11:08 am

amother [ Topaz ] wrote:

I have no clue what your talking about but people that don’t drive are moving out Monsey has reached the NJ boarder suffern is filling up pearl river is full.

Suffern and Pearl River are not full of chassidish families that the women don't drive. The schools don't even pick up from there. There really aren't much chassidim in Suffern and Pearl River.

amother

Topaz

Sun, Aug 01 2021, 11:12 am

amother [ Linen ] wrote:

Suffern and Pearl River are not full of chassidish families that the women don't drive. The schools don't even pick up from there. There really aren't much chassidim in Suffern and Pearl River.

Pearl river already have some chassidish schools picking up there and so does suffern. Suffern is filling up there is a chassidish shul there right past airmont. And lots of chassidish people are looking into suffern right now .

Mommyg8

Sun, Aug 01 2021, 11:14 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Yes me too, I am so shocked and sad

Jewish families are growing and multiplying so much bh ,wasn't that supposed to be a good thing?

It's a wonderful thing. But we simply can't build more houses without building infrastructure that sustain it. That's just the reality.

I really don't understand why we don't create new communities in different states/cities. Nobody wants to be that Nachshon but that's we need.... why do we all have to live in Lakewood and Monsey?

amother

Linen

Sun, Aug 01 2021, 11:18 am

amother [ Topaz ] wrote:

Only big schools (Viznitz, Satmer) that have enough bussing send transportation there. Suffern that's bordering Airmont/Chestnut is slowly filling up. But not really Pearl River. Chassidish families moving from Brooklyn aren't really interested in moving out of area. It's more the Monsey people moving out.

amother

Royalblue

Sun, Aug 01 2021, 11:18 am

amother [ Topaz ] wrote:

I have no clue what your talking about but people that don’t drive are moving out Monsey has reached the NJ boarder suffern is filling up pearl river is full.

agree

I moved to airmont (from main monsey mind you) 4 years ago and since I bought my house the housing prices have shot up. we can now sell our house for at least 100k more than we bought it for. since we moved we have gotten a new (illegal) shul on our street and another one around the corner where dh completes he minyan. we support newday and monsey glatt. we'd anytime rather eat out at manche pani peppercrust the ridge pita land or bagel d'lox than travel further out.

BUT my kids still need a school/cheder with space for them and their bussing is all over monsey and its environs so if I have a doctors appt in the morning I sit in traffic of all the busses. baruch hashem I say but it's still annoying. if I want to visit my parents (who live in main monsey) I need to sit in traffic of about 20 minutes . otoh when we go late at night and no cars on the road it takes 10 min.

my neighbor who moved from brooklyn a year ago and my other neighbor who moved from brooklyn 3 years ago are no different than me.

amother

Royalblue

Sun, Aug 01 2021, 11:20 am

amother [ Linen ] wrote:

Viznitz is very resistant to send transportation far out. Satmar has no problem and there are others who are smaller and have no problem either.

amother

Sun, Aug 01 2021, 11:20 am

Mommyg8 wrote:

What about Florida ? Why is there similar talk and attitude there as well?

southernbubby

Sun, Aug 01 2021, 11:39 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

What about Florida ? Why is there similar talk and attitude there as well?

My understanding of Florida is that even non gated communities have HOAs, along with fees and rules. Knocking down an existing house and building a multi family home wouldn't fly.
We see what happened in Florida where the rules of architecture, physics and zoning are skirted and ignored. I don't think that they are going to be willing to overbuild at this point. Condos have downsides.

amother

Ballota

Sun, Aug 01 2021, 12:15 pm

I didn’t read the whole thread yet but I think the problem comes where Brooklyn is so built up as In many stores and many restaurants. And all that kind of stuff. When you come to smaller towns you get nicer homes more lands but no restaurants open at 1 AM one pizza store one or two grocery stores. the groceries are a little bit more . There’s no busing maybe then you need to carpool. there’s no city buses it’s different. People move for the space and then complain about all the things they don’t have which can frustrate the people who live there and deal with it like get over the busing issue or the Takeout food issue. I grew up in Brooklyn and moved out when I got married Some people who come to my New Jersey town complain and some people love it You can’t move and Brooklyn and expect everything to be the same.

amother

Goldenrod

Sun, Aug 01 2021, 12:23 pm

amother [ Ballota ] wrote:

But it's not the brooklyn people complaining it's the lakewood and monsey people complaining and saying we don't want you.

notshanarishona

Sun, Aug 01 2021, 12:27 pm

There is a whole world of frum communities outside of NY/NJ. People should move places where the schools have room and housing is semi affordable, Atlanta/ Tampa/ Miami/ Chicago/ South Bend/ Cincinatti/ Dayton/ Waterberry/ Nashville/ Etc just off the top of my head.
People need to stop moving places and just assume it will work. It’s not fair to your kids.

amother

Sun, Aug 01 2021, 12:35 pm

notshanarishona wrote:

I personally would not be looking into lakewood and monsey (besides the fact that housing is simply unaffordable to me )
But the people I know who are moving there have jobs in ny and need to be within 1.5 hours for their commute.
That's why they are moving from Brooklyn to those places .so they are limited on where they can go

ora_43

Sun, Aug 01 2021, 12:36 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

I think that people who say this obviously don't live here and don't understand the enormity of the problem.

Of course we need to start new communities! Isn't that what they do in Israel all the time? If we're comparing.

Israel has the same issues, though, because our entire population is growing considerably. Not like in the US where the overall population growth is pretty steady, and people having 7-8 kids are a tiny fraction of the population.

And maybe more relevant - when we do start new communities, there's no rule that people from, say, Jerusalem and Bnei Brak have to move to the new places, and people in Beit Shemesh and Beitar get to stay right where they are and enjoy their perfectly preserved, demographically balanced communities.

Hareidim from Jerusalem move to Beit Shemesh, which to them still looks cheap and uncrowded by comparison to Mea Shearim. And people from Beit Shemesh who get sick of the crowding and high prices and religious extremism move out to Modiin or Ashdod.

Is it fair? Sort of, yeah. Obviously it's hard to be the one watching your childhood community change into someplace you don't want to live anymore. But at the end of the day, everyone's free to choose what they're willing to put up with, where it's worth it to them to live and where it isn't.

I think we always have to ask, what's the alternative? I mean, there are places where living in a community gives you special rights, and no outsider is allowed to move in without the approval of the people already living there. In Israel at least, those places are communist kibbutzim, or Arab villages where the clans rule everything. At some point you have to choose - central government control, or democracy + the risk that someday, your neighborhood will change.

ora_43

Sun, Aug 01 2021, 12:45 pm

Also, there's a whole big ocean of gray area between blatant anti-Semitism, and 'things that are completely fine to say.'

Hatred of outsiders is still hate, even if it isn't linked to their race or religion.

I think it comes down to, is the dislike proportionate. Not to my own suffering, but to the other person's actual role in it.

Hating a person who shoved through a change in zoning laws that destroyed a community? Go for it.

Hating a person who couldn't afford a house in the city he grew up in, and so was forced to move his family to my community? Not fair. Even if I have all the legitimate reasons in the world for wishing he and everyone like him had gone Elsewhere, still not fair.

southernbubby

Sun, Aug 01 2021, 1:12 pm

ora_43 wrote:

Where we are renting in Florida, there can't be more than 2 people per bedroom so a family of 4 can occupy a 2 bedroom apartment. I don't get the feeling that they are tolerant of people breaking these rules. Maybe a newborn baby that sleeps with the parents can squeak by for awhile but if a big family wants to live there, no dice. They will be evicted.
Basically the establishment needs to set and enforce rules or the place gets overrun and the establishment is the one to blame.