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amother
Cappuccino
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 Sun, Aug 01 2021, 4:57 pm
| amother [ Pearl ] wrote: | | We went to the Jackson wooden park today and on the way back we passed a gorgeous frum development that’s being built. I think it’s called royal grove? Who’s buying there? Looks like they’re building a huge complex and will all move there at once so they don’t need to worry about infrastructure. It’s pretty far out but loads of spacious houses. |
There are plenty of families living there already. Nice frum, a touch heimish people.
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PinkFridge
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Sun, Aug 01 2021, 5:10 pm
| amother [ Linen ] wrote: | 40, 50, 60 + years ago when people moved to Brooklyn, they were the one's the built the city up. Now that Brooklyn is so crowded, no one is moving to Brooklyn anymore. Same should be for Monsey and Lakewood. It's so overcrowded, people should think about starting to move elsewhere.
Of course everyone can move where they please as long as housing is being built. And I'll say it yet again, when you move to a new community, you must be ready to contribute to the community instead of complaining and expecting to be served on a golden platter. |
But intowners find 2 hour drives traumatic and want to stay in their communities. Just playing devil's advocate.
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amother
DarkPurple
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Sun, Aug 01 2021, 5:14 pm
Long post. Feel free to skip, but don’t bash me for writing it. You were pre-warned...
Wow. What a conversation. I strongly believe that either way too many people are very self centered, or they don’t know how they sound.
Scratch the anti-semitism for a moment. What are the options for a frum family? A new world? Because there are people living all over. Either in quiet areas or in existing communities.
So if for instance, I choose to go to a new area and open brand new schools, supermarkets, shul/Mikvah etc. I’m not welcome. The handful of secular people living there want their peace and quiet and strongly oppose a new community. We keep hearing how Jews are not wanted etc. etc.
This is true even if we go to a wooded area and knock out all the trees starting a community from scratch. There are always some people hiding out there.
Think about Columbus “discovering” America. Indians were living there and I’m sure they didn’t love the Europeans with their “attitude of needing everything served on a gold platter.”
So the other option, is to go to an existing frum community where we won’t be hated (or shouldn’t be- by our own brethren?!?) for wanting to live and multiply. Eventually, everyone slowly but surely expands and yes there are growing pains in the process. For everyone. It isn’t easy to uproot and move and it’s also frustrating to deal with new traffic. But it is what it is.
I’m sure the people living in Manhattan before it became prohibitively expensive, weren’t thrilled with the changes either.
So what do you all recommend? Make the world Juden-rein? Eliminate the population?
This is where anti-Semitism comes in. Whenever Jews would arrive in a new country, they would get the same treatment. During the war, thousands were send back to be killed because they didn’t have a sponsor and they were going to be a burden on the country. Same lousy excuses went on for generations, while we Jews were in exile.
So who exactly do all of you, selfish frum people think you are? If you’re not like the anti-Semites although your actions are the same, maybe you’re simply self hating Jews. If not, why the arrogance and blaming the system, the problems and what not, much in the same way that was done by other nations?
I’ll share a little secret with you. You are Descendants of refugees. Wether you, your parents or ancestors were fleeing for their life or for a better financial opportunity, the fact is, we are ALL coming from somewhere.
None of you living in Monsey or Lakewood established the communities. Those who did, wouldn’t speak this way. They would be happy that it’s expanding and that all their efforts paid off. So, you also came to ready infrastructure. In fact, I believe most of the people complaining, are first or second generation newcomers themselves, who came 10-30 years ago with the same expectations. Not too many are grandchildren from Pioneers.
I also don’t see any truth in the newcomers wanting to be served on a golden platter. On the contrary. I see brand new huge shopping malls, amongst many other expansions coming up. With a lot of people opening businesses and contributing to the community.
For instance, Oak ‘n vine did a great job with new shopping centers. Eventually there will be more of whatever is needed.
Monsey, Lakewood, Florida and the likes will all potentially burst at the seams anyways, from their own growth. No place stays the same forever. Look at the lower east side. It is slowly falling apart completely with hardly a handful of kids in some grades. It’s either you grow or you collapse. You can choose to accept and move on or complain and blame. But you don’t own your city or state and you can’t tell others what to do.
Living in Brooklyn, whom can I blame on the fact that there aren’t enough Mikvaos and the wait for a room is endless? And who is to blame that the traffic to Monsey or upstate is oh so bad? Or the packed shoe/uniform/clothing stores before school? There is growth all over, BH. I am paying a building fund in my own Brooklyn based school, by the way.
(Because so many families decided to rebuild yiddishkeit and have large families. What arrogance. They want to come to Brooklyn and I have to pay for it?)
This is a ridiculous way of thinking.
Yes, I agree builders shouldn’t put up 10 family homes in the place of a two family lot and charge a fortune. But why are the new tenants or owners at fault? Because they can’t afford a home in Brooklyn and this seems much more affordable and their only option? You think if I’m coming to Monsey or Lakewood I want to rack up the prices? I can only buy whatever is available for the market price.
Yes there’s a huge demand, so developers unfortunately take advantage. See if you can do anything on that end. Thousands of frum families are without a roof over their heads because they can’t afford it. Why do you feel entitled to live peacefully in your own home while everyone else needs to find a shack in the woods so they shouldn’t inconvenience you?
The advantage of such exponential growth is that it causes increased pressure on authorities to expand whatever is necessary. But some things will never go back to the way it was.
Try giving America back to the Indians now. Let’s all go to Israel with Moshiach tzidkeinu, bimheira b’yameinu Amein. Win-win.
Hey, but is there room in the infrastructure for all of us there? I think you’re not wanted….
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amother
Rainbow
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Sun, Aug 01 2021, 5:17 pm
| amother [ Linen ] wrote: | | I live in Monsey. Builders and developers definitely do want people to move out. They're not stopping to build all over town for prices that basically only people from Brooklyn can afford. Multi family homes are being built where 1 family homes used to be. As long as new houses and developments will be built, people will continue to move out, regardless if the town infrastructure can handle it or not. By now main Monsey is a city with horrendous traffic, and not the countryside anymore. |
To clarify: you're talking about central Monsey/Spring Valley only. All of the neighboring villages have retained their original charm... for now.
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amother
Rainbow
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Sun, Aug 01 2021, 5:20 pm
| amother [ Mulberry ] wrote: | Until you have to drive 2 miles down rt 9 or central ave. And It takes you 1/2 hr you can’t understand how bad it is…
It is impossible to comprehend the level of traffic on residential streets. Sometimes downtown is just a square of gridlock.
I think the blame is a lot on developers and city planners.
Houses are built on cul de sacs and dead ends leading to already packed roadways which doesn’t open up any new right of ways.
Houses are packed together and variances are given for multi family housing were one house uses to city.
Often developers aren’t held responsible for building infrastructure around their new developments (sidewalks, turning lanes, wide streets, curbs).
Developers should be required to contribute to new schools and mikvos by the community.
To give an idea - you end up with 40 ppl (in 20 town homes) moving to a dead end st that used to have one home with no sidewalks on the main road. |
I could have written this post about the developers in Monsey! Same exact issue. And the newly arrived from the city don't even get what I'm referring to when I talk about the traffic and overcrowding. Well, compared to Brooklyn...
And when I bemoan what a mess they've made of my idyllic town I'm either told that I'm welcome to move or called an anti-Semite. Really now!
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amother
Firethorn
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Sun, Aug 01 2021, 5:29 pm
| amother [ DarkPurple ] wrote: | Long post. Feel free to skip, but don’t bash me for writing it. You were pre-warned...
Wow. What a conversation. I strongly believe that either way too many people are very self centered, or they don’t know how they sound.
Scratch the anti-semitism for a moment. What are the options for a frum family? A new world? Because there are people living all over. Either in quiet areas or in existing communities.
So if for instance, I choose to go to a new area and open brand new schools, supermarkets, shul/Mikvah etc. I’m not welcome. The handful of secular people living there want their peace and quiet and strongly oppose a new community. We keep hearing how Jews are not wanted etc. etc.
This is true even if we go to a wooded area and knock out all the trees starting a community from scratch. There are always some people hiding out there.
Think about Columbus “discovering” America. Indians were living there and I’m sure they didn’t love the Europeans with their “attitude of needing everything served on a gold platter.”
So the other option, is to go to an existing frum community where we won’t be hated (or shouldn’t be- by our own brethren?!?) for wanting to live and multiply. Eventually, everyone slowly but surely expands and yes there are growing pains in the process. For everyone. It isn’t easy to uproot and move and it’s also frustrating to deal with new traffic. But it is what it is.
I’m sure the people living in Manhattan before it became prohibitively expensive, weren’t thrilled with the changes either.
So what do you all recommend? Make the world Juden-rein? Eliminate the population?
This is where anti-Semitism comes in. Whenever Jews would arrive in a new country, they would get the same treatment. During the war, thousands were send back to be killed because they didn’t have a sponsor and they were going to be a burden on the country. Same lousy excuses went on for generations, while we Jews were in exile.
So who exactly do all of you, selfish frum people think you are? If you’re not like the anti-Semites although your actions are the same, maybe you’re simply self hating Jews. If not, why the arrogance and blaming the system, the problems and what not, much in the same way that was done by other nations?
I’ll share a little secret with you. You are Descendants of refugees. Wether you, your parents or ancestors were fleeing for their life or for a better financial opportunity, the fact is, we are ALL coming from somewhere.
None of you living in Monsey or Lakewood established the communities. Those who did, wouldn’t speak this way. They would be happy that it’s expanding and that all their efforts paid off. So, you also came to ready infrastructure. In fact, I believe most of the people complaining, are first or second generation newcomers themselves, who came 10-30 years ago with the same expectations. Not too many are grandchildren from Pioneers.
I also don’t see any truth in the newcomers wanting to be served on a golden platter. On the contrary. I see brand new huge shopping malls, amongst many other expansions coming up. With a lot of people opening businesses and contributing to the community.
For instance, Oak ‘n vine did a great job with new shopping centers. Eventually there will be more of whatever is needed.
Monsey, Lakewood, Florida and the likes will all potentially burst at the seams anyways, from their own growth. No place stays the same forever. Look at the lower east side. It is slowly falling apart completely with hardly a handful of kids in some grades. It’s either you grow or you collapse. You can choose to accept and move on or complain and blame. But you don’t own your city or state and you can’t tell others what to do.
Living in Brooklyn, whom can I blame on the fact that there aren’t enough Mikvaos and the wait for a room is endless? And who is to blame that the traffic to Monsey or upstate is oh so bad? Or the packed shoe/uniform/clothing stores before school? There is growth all over, BH. I am paying a building fund in my own Brooklyn based school, by the way.
(Because so many families decided to rebuild yiddishkeit and have large families. What arrogance. They want to come to Brooklyn and I have to pay for it?)
This is a ridiculous way of thinking.
Yes, I agree builders shouldn’t put up 10 family homes in the place of a two family lot and charge a fortune. But why are the new tenants or owners at fault? Because they can’t afford a home in Brooklyn and this seems much more affordable and their only option? You think if I’m coming to Monsey or Lakewood I want to rack up the prices? I can only buy whatever is available for the market price.
Yes there’s a huge demand, so developers unfortunately take advantage. See if you can do anything on that end. Thousands of frum families are without a roof over their heads because they can’t afford it. Why do you feel entitled to live peacefully in your own home while everyone else needs to find a shack in the woods so they shouldn’t inconvenience you?
The advantage of such exponential growth is that it causes increased pressure on authorities to expand whatever is necessary. But some things will never go back to the way it was.
Try giving America back to the Indians now. Let’s all go to Israel with Moshiach tzidkeinu, bimheira b’yameinu Amein. Win-win.
Hey, but is there room in the infrastructure for all of us there? I think you’re not wanted…. |
Your post is on point for moving into communities where there's place for growth. It is off base for those moving into communities bursting at its seams and expecting accommodations no matter the cost.
It makes no sense to be moving from a place that you're outpriced and has no breathing room to just recreate the same scenario in other towns. When towns are so overloaded that the quality of life has taken a steep dive for everyone involved, it benefits no one. Not the old inhabitants, nor the newcomers. If you're moving from Brooklyn to escape the limited options, congestion and high prices, why are you recreating it in Monsey, in Lakewood and in other towns. It isn't the situation where there is no land, or communities available for growth. It is just that no one wants to put in the work or wants to handle the inconveniences.
If people would be willing to go elsewhere, the developers would be building elsewhere.
The question you ask above is totally off base. No one is sending anyone to live in the shack of the woods. There are beautiful accommodations in so many nearby communities, and probably nicer than the one we are 'peacefully' living in. We aren't asking to live in luxury, we are asking to be able to live a life where the roads can be traveled, and the schools don't have kids jammed into a janitor's closet.
America has 4,563,570,600,000 square feet of space. There's plenty of space for everyone to live in beautiful accommodations.
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amother
NeonBlue
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Sun, Aug 01 2021, 5:54 pm
| amother [ Firethorn ] wrote: | Your post is on point for moving into communities where there's place for growth. It is off base for those moving into communities bursting at its seams and expecting accommodations no matter the cost.
It makes no sense to be moving from a place that you're outpriced and has no breathing room to just recreate the same scenario in other towns. When towns are so overloaded that the quality of life has taken a steep dive for everyone involved, it benefits no one. Not the old inhabitants, nor the newcomers. If you're moving from Brooklyn to escape the limited options, congestion and high prices, why are you recreating it in Monsey, in Lakewood and in other towns. It isn't the situation where there is no land, or communities available for growth. It is just that no one wants to put in the work or wants to handle the inconveniences.
If people would be willing to go elsewhere, the developers would be building elsewhere.
The question you ask above is totally off base. No one is sending anyone to live in the shack of the woods. There are beautiful accommodations in so many nearby communities, and probably nicer than the one we are 'peacefully' living in. We aren't asking to live in luxury, we are asking to be able to live a life where the roads can be traveled, and the schools don't have kids jammed into a janitor's closet.
America has 4,563,570,600,000 square feet of space. There's plenty of space for everyone to live in beautiful accommodations. |
telling other yehudim to move elsewhere and not to the town you were "peacefully" living in, is hypocritical (besides anti semitic)
all of you posters who live in monsey/lakewood/florida etc were NOT the ones who built up those towns....you moved there and had everything set up for you just like those moving there now
what makes any yehudi "new" to the town that he is causing overcrowding and should be kicked out?
is it the yehudim who moved there 20 yrs ago?
who moved there 10 yrs ago ?
or only those who moved there in the last 5 yrs and now?
you dont own the town and dont have any more right to live there more than anyonelse even if you moved 25 yrs ago and I moved now.....
telling yehudim not to buy houses in our town and dont use our schools etc is the opposite of what we yehudim need....we need to move near schools/mikvaos/kosher etc....
dont say "open your own schools", are you all funding these schools? to open new schools you need leaders and a lot of money
all of you who moved to your town 30 yrs ago(or more recently) didnt open schools and the ppl who lived there at that time couldve said you were the families who crowded the town too....and the nonyehudim didnt want all the yehudim moving into their town 30 or more yrs ago when you moved in either....
everyone who was living in that place before you can say the same about all of you criticizing us newcomers bec before all the houses were built, it was much more forest....which was cut to build your homes youve lived all these yrs
yes, we can leave brooklyn and move to an area that is not crowded with no acess to yeshivas nearby and it would be a cheaper/bigger house, but it would be against the torah bec we are required to send our kids to yeshiva/daven/go to mikva etc...
you dont like it? you all can go and build up in a new town ...so you can have peace and no traffic....
as long as the developers build and we can afford to buy, we can buy wherever we want to and we can apply to the local schools and expect our kids get a yehudi education or are you saying shld we go to public school? and assimilate???
if you still have kids in school, then you are probably also relatively new(15 to 20 yrs) to the town and now you own it???
you are all self hating and anti semitism
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amother
Firethorn
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Sun, Aug 01 2021, 6:10 pm
| amother [ NeonBlue ] wrote: | telling other yehudim to move elsewhere and not to the town you were "peacefully" living in, is hypocritical (besides anti semitic)
all of you posters who live in monsey/lakewood/florida etc were NOT the ones who built up those towns....you moved there and had everything set up for you just like those moving there now
what makes any yehudi "new" to the town that he is causing overcrowding and should be kicked out?
is it the yehudim who moved there 20 yrs ago?
who moved there 10 yrs ago ?
or only those who moved there in the last 5 yrs and now?
you dont own the town and dont have any more right to live there more than anyonelse even if you moved 25 yrs ago and I moved now.....
telling yehudim not to buy houses in our town and dont use our schools etc is the opposite of what we yehudim need....we need to move near schools/mikvaos/kosher etc....
dont say "open your own schools", are you all funding these schools? to open new schools you need leaders and a lot of money
all of you who moved to your town 30 yrs ago(or more recently) didnt open schools and the ppl who lived there at that time couldve said you were the families who crowded the town too....and the nonyehudim didnt want all the yehudim moving into their town 30 or more yrs ago when you moved in either....
everyone who was living in that place before you can say the same about all of you criticizing us newcomers bec before all the houses were built, it was much more forest....which was cut to build your homes youve lived all these yrs
yes, we can leave brooklyn and move to an area that is not crowded with no acess to yeshivas nearby and it would be a cheaper/bigger house, but it would be against the torah bec we are required to send our kids to yeshiva/daven/go to mikva etc...
you dont like it? you all can go and build up in a new town ...so you can have peace and no traffic....
as long as the developers build and we can afford to buy, we can buy wherever we want to and we can apply to the local schools and expect our kids get a yehudi education or are you saying shld we go to public school? and assimilate???
if you still have kids in school, then you are probably also relatively new(15 to 20 yrs) to the town and now you own it???
you are all self hating and anti semitism |
I think you need to relearn the definition of self-hating and anti-semitism.
You also make it out to be a black and white situation. It isn't that we are shutting our doors and no one is welcome or everyone come on in and overcrowd us out of daily functioning. As long as there's room, everyone is welcome. Here in Monsey, everyone is welcome into the surrounding towns. Pomona, Pearl River, Montebello, Stonypoint have plenty of room and everyone is welcome to come. But crowding into Monsey & Spring valley, where the traffic is literally at a standstill, is unfair to both newcomers and old-timers alike.
It comes a point in time when current areas become overpopulated and it's healthier and better for everyone to spread out in all directions, instead of living one on top of one another. It has nothing to do with self-hating or anti-semitism. It can actually be interpreted in the opposite way. I love my fellow brothers and sisters so much, that I find sorry for them to uproot themselves only to find themselves in the same situation in a few years down the road. I feel sorry for them that they've run from an overpriced, crowded area, only to be met with the same conditions a couple of years from now. Let's think long-term. B"H we are growing exponentially, we need to think about the future for all our wonderful children. Let's set up a foundation in moving out to open other areas, so our children will have more options for a better, more comfortable and less costly future.
I repeat again that schools are a separate issue. There is no room for anyone these days. Even siblings in the same schools are an issue. That needs to be tackled separately.
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amother
Aqua
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Sun, Aug 01 2021, 6:11 pm
| amother [ Firethorn ] wrote: | Your post is on point for moving into communities where there's place for growth. It is off base for those moving into communities bursting at its seams and expecting accommodations no matter the cost.
It makes no sense to be moving from a place that you're outpriced and has no breathing room to just recreate the same scenario in other towns. When towns are so overloaded that the quality of life has taken a steep dive for everyone involved, it benefits no one. Not the old inhabitants, nor the newcomers. If you're moving from Brooklyn to escape the limited options, congestion and high prices, why are you recreating it in Monsey, in Lakewood and in other towns. It isn't the situation where there is no land, or communities available for growth. It is just that no one wants to put in the work or wants to handle the inconveniences.
If people would be willing to go elsewhere, the developers would be building elsewhere.
The question you ask above is totally off base. No one is sending anyone to live in the shack of the woods. There are beautiful accommodations in so many nearby communities, and probably nicer than the one we are 'peacefully' living in. We aren't asking to live in luxury, we are asking to be able to live a life where the roads can be traveled, and the schools don't have kids jammed into a janitor's closet.
America has 4,563,570,600,000 square feet of space. There's plenty of space for everyone to live in beautiful accommodations. |
It is just the way of the world that nowhere stays the "in" neighborhood for too long before the problems of the old and out neighborhood start to catch up with it.
You have to make peace with it.
I'm in Lakewood for a very long time. Back from the days that when I walked down the street or went to the store I knew every person I saw. If you are not in Lakewood for that long life would be better for me if you lived elsewhere too. But unappreciated as it is people can move wherever they want.
While I do think people moving to Lakewood (or Jackson or anywhere else) should be more sensitive to how much the old timers dislike the changing demographics and strain on infrastructure that they are causing they still can not be told not to come.
Why should the non-Jews in the places you feel those people should go to be any more welcoming of the new developments being built than the frum people in Lakewood are?
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amother
Goldenrod
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Sun, Aug 01 2021, 6:14 pm
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People need to adapt. You aren't getting back your old towns. You can push for change that will help the towns and not hurt it, like developments should be built further out so they don't cause extra traffic etc... But enough with this attitude of being upset at people moving. You really don't have more of a right to the area than anyone else. Even if you were born there your parents weren't so stop being entitled. It's interesting because brooklyn people never complained about the people moving in that drove the prices up. Or the out of towners clogging the streets every sunday who drove in for their shopping.
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Mommyg8
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Sun, Aug 01 2021, 6:14 pm
| amother [ NeonBlue ] wrote: |
as long as the developers build and we can afford to buy, we can buy wherever we want to and we can apply to the local schools and expect our kids get a yehudi education or are you saying shld we go to public school? and assimilate???
if you still have kids in school, then you are probably also relatively new(15 to 20 yrs) to the town and now you own it???
you are all self hating and anti semitism |
So this is the part you're missing. If developers build in places where they shouldn't, is that yashrus? All towns have zoning laws, etc to allow growth to happen at a natural pace and not overwhelm the existing infrastructure. If builders build in this matter, kol hakovod. We would love for all of you to come! It's when they build in a way that is not sustainable that we all have issue with.
To be clear, I'm not placing the blame on the people who are buying in these new developments. But the facts remain, these developments should not have been built, they should not have been approved, or at the very least they should have been built in a smart way. (West Gate is a huge development that comes to mind, that was built in a smart way and did not create any problems for Lakewood). Again, no blame on any individuals, but at the end of the day, this just should not be happening.
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amother
Firethorn
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Sun, Aug 01 2021, 6:17 pm
| amother [ Aqua ] wrote: | It is just the way of the world that nowhere stays the "in" neighborhood for too long before the problems of the old and out neighborhood start to catch up with it.
You have to make peace with it.
I'm in Lakewood for a very long time. Back from the days when I walked down the street or went to the store I knew every person I saw. If you are not in Lakewood for that long I wish you lived elsewhere too. But unappreciated as it is people can move wherever they want.
While I do think people moving to Lakewood (or Jackson or anywhere else) should be more sensitive to how much the old timers dislike the changing demographics and structures on infrastructure they still can not be told not to come.
Why should the non-Jews in the place you feel the people should go to be any more welcoming than the frum people in Lakewood are? |
If we move to new neighborhoods, and respect the rules of the town, then no one has issues welcoming anyone. It has nothing to do with Jews or non-Jews. Most people, Jews and non-Jews alike get upset when others move into their towns and upend life as they have known it to be.
When do you draw the line? When traveling a mile in your local streets takes 20 minutes? Or when you literally can't take your car out your driveway anymore, and have to resort to walking everywhere, because it is faster to walk? Besides for quality of life, these things have ramifications. Emergency services have a harder time getting where they are needed. The kids bus routes double in time. Deliveries are impacted, etc.
This is not about living in comfort and luxury. This is about having normal access to the basic amenities of life.
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Mommyg8
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Sun, Aug 01 2021, 6:20 pm
| amother [ Goldenrod ] wrote: | | People need to adapt. You aren't getting back your old towns. You can push for change that will help the towns and not hurt it, like developments should be built further out so they don't cause extra traffic etc... But enough with this attitude of being upset at people moving. You really don't have more of a right to the area than anyone else. Even if you were born there your parents weren't so stop being entitled. It's interesting because brooklyn people never complained about the people moving in that drove the prices up. Or the out of towners clogging the streets every sunday who drove in for their shopping. |
They adapted, the market economy has spoken and now everyone is priced out of Lakewood and the surrounding towns.
In any case, there is no room in the schools for any kids - both coming from out of town and those who's grandparents were born here as well - so this is not about out of town/in town. Again, the infrastructure - schools, shuls, etc - has to keep up with the growth. When people build complexes but don't build the necessary institutions to go along with them is when we have a problem.
(Brooklyn is a city and Monsey and Lakewood are suburban towns, so the comparison is not valid).
Last edited by Mommyg8 on Sun, Aug 01 2021, 6:24 pm; edited 1 time in total
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amother
Firethorn
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Sun, Aug 01 2021, 6:22 pm
| amother [ Goldenrod ] wrote: | | People need to adapt. You aren't getting back your old towns. You can push for change that will help the towns and not hurt it, like developments should be built further out so they don't cause extra traffic etc... But enough with this attitude of being upset at people moving. You really don't have more of a right to the area than anyone else. Even if you were born there your parents weren't so stop being entitled. It's interesting because brooklyn people never complained about the people moving in that drove the prices up. Or the out of towners clogging the streets every sunday who drove in for their shopping. |
Really? The complaints were sky high. And I distinctly remember the people of Williamsburg launching campaigns against the "artistan" who were moving into their territory and threatening to destroy their quality of life.
This is not about rights. It's about consideration about the welfare of other people. Destroying other people's basic quality of life isn't a small issue. It affects the daily life of people. Instead of pointing fingers at those whose quality of life you are destroying, turn them back onto yourself. Ask yourself why is it ok for others to better their lives on the account of destroying others? If we'd live in a place where there is no other option, then of course it has to be so. But in a country with so many available areas, why can we only create ghettoes?
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southernbubby
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Sun, Aug 01 2021, 6:24 pm
| amother [ DarkPurple ] wrote: | Long post. Feel free to skip, but don’t bash me for writing it. You were pre-warned...
Wow. What a conversation. I strongly believe that either way too many people are very self centered, or they don’t know how they sound.
Scratch the anti-semitism for a moment. What are the options for a frum family? A new world? Because there are people living all over. Either in quiet areas or in existing communities.
So if for instance, I choose to go to a new area and open brand new schools, supermarkets, shul/Mikvah etc. I’m not welcome. The handful of secular people living there want their peace and quiet and strongly oppose a new community. We keep hearing how Jews are not wanted etc. etc.
This is true even if we go to a wooded area and knock out all the trees starting a community from scratch. There are always some people hiding out there.
Think about Columbus “discovering” America. Indians were living there and I’m sure they didn’t love the Europeans with their “attitude of needing everything served on a gold platter.”
So the other option, is to go to an existing frum community where we won’t be hated (or shouldn’t be- by our own brethren?!?) for wanting to live and multiply. Eventually, everyone slowly but surely expands and yes there are growing pains in the process. For everyone. It isn’t easy to uproot and move and it’s also frustrating to deal with new traffic. But it is what it is.
I’m sure the people living in Manhattan before it became prohibitively expensive, weren’t thrilled with the changes either.
So what do you all recommend? Make the world Juden-rein? Eliminate the population?
This is where anti-Semitism comes in. Whenever Jews would arrive in a new country, they would get the same treatment. During the war, thousands were send back to be killed because they didn’t have a sponsor and they were going to be a burden on the country. Same lousy excuses went on for generations, while we Jews were in exile.
So who exactly do all of you, selfish frum people think you are? If you’re not like the anti-Semites although your actions are the same, maybe you’re simply self hating Jews. If not, why the arrogance and blaming the system, the problems and what not, much in the same way that was done by other nations?
I’ll share a little secret with you. You are Descendants of refugees. Wether you, your parents or ancestors were fleeing for their life or for a better financial opportunity, the fact is, we are ALL coming from somewhere.
None of you living in Monsey or Lakewood established the communities. Those who did, wouldn’t speak this way. They would be happy that it’s expanding and that all their efforts paid off. So, you also came to ready infrastructure. In fact, I believe most of the people complaining, are first or second generation newcomers themselves, who came 10-30 years ago with the same expectations. Not too many are grandchildren from Pioneers.
I also don’t see any truth in the newcomers wanting to be served on a golden platter. On the contrary. I see brand new huge shopping malls, amongst many other expansions coming up. With a lot of people opening businesses and contributing to the community.
For instance, Oak ‘n vine did a great job with new shopping centers. Eventually there will be more of whatever is needed.
Monsey, Lakewood, Florida and the likes will all potentially burst at the seams anyways, from their own growth. No place stays the same forever. Look at the lower east side. It is slowly falling apart completely with hardly a handful of kids in some grades. It’s either you grow or you collapse. You can choose to accept and move on or complain and blame. But you don’t own your city or state and you can’t tell others what to do.
Living in Brooklyn, whom can I blame on the fact that there aren’t enough Mikvaos and the wait for a room is endless? And who is to blame that the traffic to Monsey or upstate is oh so bad? Or the packed shoe/uniform/clothing stores before school? There is growth all over, BH. I am paying a building fund in my own Brooklyn based school, by the way.
(Because so many families decided to rebuild yiddishkeit and have large families. What arrogance. They want to come to Brooklyn and I have to pay for it?)
This is a ridiculous way of thinking.
Yes, I agree builders shouldn’t put up 10 family homes in the place of a two family lot and charge a fortune. But why are the new tenants or owners at fault? Because they can’t afford a home in Brooklyn and this seems much more affordable and their only option? You think if I’m coming to Monsey or Lakewood I want to rack up the prices? I can only buy whatever is available for the market price.
Yes there’s a huge demand, so developers unfortunately take advantage. See if you can do anything on that end. Thousands of frum families are without a roof over their heads because they can’t afford it. Why do you feel entitled to live peacefully in your own home while everyone else needs to find a shack in the woods so they shouldn’t inconvenience you?
The advantage of such exponential growth is that it causes increased pressure on authorities to expand whatever is necessary. But some things will never go back to the way it was.
Try giving America back to the Indians now. Let’s all go to Israel with Moshiach tzidkeinu, bimheira b’yameinu Amein. Win-win.
Hey, but is there room in the infrastructure for all of us there? I think you’re not wanted…. |
What part of Florida is bursting at the seams? People can't put multi family housing on lots zoned for single homes.
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amother
Goldenrod
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Sun, Aug 01 2021, 6:35 pm
| amother [ Firethorn ] wrote: | Really? The complaints were sky high. And I distinctly remember the people of Williamsburg launching campaigns against the "artistan" who were moving into their territory and threatening to destroy their quality of life.
This is not about rights. It's about consideration about the welfare of other people. Destroying other people's basic quality of life isn't a small issue. It affects the daily life of people. Instead of pointing fingers at those whose quality of life you are destroying, turn them back onto yourself. Ask yourself why is it ok for others to better their lives on the account of destroying others? If we'd live in a place where there is no other option, then of course it has to be so. But in a country with so many available areas, why can we only create ghettoes? |
Because there are no available areas. I looked into multiple states. Certain jobs have to stick to big cities. And you can't just move out to a random place that has no mikvah, shul or school. Even to get 10 people together to move somewhere new is a huge deal. Jews need to go where they can be frum. We are finally building up our nation it's just so sad to see people angry about it. People will move to areas near developed areas and they will slowly add their own infrastructure like schools and mikvaos. But in the meantime they don't need to move to rural kansas until it happens.
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Mommyg8
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Sun, Aug 01 2021, 6:39 pm
| amother [ Goldenrod ] wrote: | | Because there are no available areas. I looked into multiple states. Certain jobs have to stick to big cities. And you can't just move out to a random place that has no mikvah, shul or school. Even to get 10 people together to move somewhere new is a huge deal. Jews need to go where they can be frum. We are finally building up our nation it's just so sad to see people angry about it. People will move to areas near developed areas and they will slowly add their own infrastructure like schools and mikvaos. But in the meantime they don't need to move to rural kansas until it happens. |
How are there no available areas?
And how can it be that we have thousands upon thousands of families who need to live somewhere but we can't put together 10 families who will move together, and we can't afford to build a mikvah and school/yeshivas for them? When did our communities become so poor?????
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amother
Firethorn
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Sun, Aug 01 2021, 6:41 pm
| amother [ Goldenrod ] wrote: | | Because there are no available areas. I looked into multiple states. Certain jobs have to stick to big cities. And you can't just move out to a random place that has no mikvah, shul or school. Even to get 10 people together to move somewhere new is a huge deal. Jews need to go where they can be frum. We are finally building up our nation it's just so sad to see people angry about it. People will move to areas near developed areas and they will slowly add their own infrastructure like schools and mikvaos. But in the meantime they don't need to move to rural kansas until it happens. |
You've just said it yourself - that is the key. - People should move to areas NEAR developed areas - not IN overly developed areas. If people consistently do this, we would be consistently developing new areas and spreading out slowly and steadily.
No one has any issues with that, and we gladly and lovingly welcome everyone to move nearby and expand the current areas.
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amother
Firethorn
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Sun, Aug 01 2021, 6:42 pm
| Mommyg8 wrote: | How are there no available areas?
And how can it be that we have thousands upon thousands of families who need to live somewhere but we can't put together 10 families who will move together, and we can't afford to build a mikvah and school/yeshivas for them? When did our communities become so poor????? |
Yep. Instead of putting up these million dollar shuls on every second street, they should divest those monies into the surrounding areas.
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amother
Aster
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Sun, Aug 01 2021, 6:44 pm
how can people tell other people how to live their lives not to move or to where to move?
we only have control over our own lives.
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