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What's the source for naming after a relative?
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amother




OP
 

Post Wed, Aug 04 2021, 8:37 pm
I can be assertive all I want.
do I want dh parents to be upset at him forever? no, they shouldn't get a say, especially w scare tactics but it's not dh fault that I dislike the names he has.
some children do what they want and couldn't care less, others, the goody-goodies, suffer.
and yet, while I understand all this I still hate the idea of giving a name that has no meaning, sound or sentimental value to me.
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amother




NeonOrange
 

Post Wed, Aug 04 2021, 8:45 pm
They had their turn with their own kids. Now, you are the mother and YOU are the one with ruach hakodesh.

Pick up the phone before the bris/kiddush and say

Dear Fil & Mil

As the baby's parent, we have decided to name the child whatever we see fit. Please don't ruin this simcha for us by voicing your dislike & disapproval. My husband deserves to be treated kindly even if he put our preferences before yours.

The end.
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amother




Arcticblue
 

Post Wed, Aug 04 2021, 8:50 pm
amother [ OP ] wrote:
and where did all the parental pressure start?
I'm finally pregnant and giving a name I like is really important to me, but no! satisfying and honoring the grandparents of the baby is more important. as in naming after a great-grandparent.
Can someone please share where all this came from?


Please please please do not name a name unless you like it. Or please find a way to like it. Just because your husband wants you to please discuss with a rav first. I know rabbi Dovid Feinstein said that you shouldn’t name unless the mother likes the name. I personally was named a name my mother never liked and I think it affected things.
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amother




Papayawhip
 

Post Wed, Aug 04 2021, 8:55 pm
It's the fault of every person who doesn't stand up to the pressure. Only the parents of the baby should be choosing the name. If you want to name after a relative you should, and if you don't you shouldn't. In my family it's a sin not to name after relatives. Well I didn't name after a single one. My family was appalled at the time of naming but they got over themselves pretty quickly. It's my children, and I chose their names for very specific reasons. I think names are super important and there was no way I was going to name something just because of pressure. My kids are already older and I have zero regrets.
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amother




Steel
 

Post Wed, Aug 04 2021, 9:04 pm
I have the opposite problem. I really like a name of a family member whom the grandparents (I am being vague on purpose) did not have a good relationship with ( to put it nicely.) My husband actually had a close relationship with that person. I would love to give that name but am afraid of the grandparents reaction. Either they will be furious at us and take it personally that we chose that name or as someone else pointed out to me recently, the name will interfere with their emotional attachment to the child. It's so unfair. The right to name a child should entitle it parents to chose a name they want independent of others feelings.
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amother




OP
 

Post Wed, Aug 04 2021, 9:16 pm
neon and papaya! I love you! good for you for doing what's best for yourselves! I hope this thread will give me the strength in a few months time.
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Persevere




 
 
 
 

Post Wed, Aug 04 2021, 10:45 pm
I disagree with some of the posters "I carried this baby for 9 months and only I should choose the name of the child."

It should be a mutual respectful discussion between husband and wife (NOT other relatives, but yes your husband is an Equal partner in this child). Both spouses should be happy or at least okay with it. Someone might have to compromise.
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agreer




 
 
 
 

Post Wed, Aug 04 2021, 11:23 pm
If you really want a source, it's part of "Kabed es Avicha v'es Imecha". I have the Artscroll book on Kibbud Av V'em and it's in there.

That's why Ashkenazim name after the dead - to give their parents satisfaction of knowing their relatives will not be forgotten, and Sfardim name after their own living parents - it's a huge source of nachas.

These are time-honored customs dating back centuries. Yes, in Tanach they didn't do this, but for the last few hundred years, both Ashkenazim and Sfardim named after relatives as a way of honoring their parents.

The idea of choosing a name is actually a newfangled concept nowadays, and everyone who thinks it's "their right" is missing sensitivity to the mesorah. Yes, the parents have ruach hakodesh in choosing the name, but choosing a familial name doesn't lessen the ruach hakodesh. I find it so, so arrogant that women think they have a right to choose their own name because they carried the baby for 9 months... well, who cared for you and supported you for 18/20/25 years? Who paid for your wedding? Don't they deserve the best form of comfort and honor?

If your parents don't care, then fine...choose your own name, gezunteheit...and THANK THOSE PARENTS OF YOURS! And if you want your own children to choose their own names, then be this type of parent.

But if your parents do care, or one of the spouses does care, then yes...it is a MITZVAH to honor your parents by choosing a name of their relative.
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amother




OP
 

Post Wed, Aug 04 2021, 11:28 pm
Persevere wrote:
I disagree with some of the posters "I carried this baby for 9 months and only I should choose the name of the child."

It should be a mutual respectful discussion between husband and wife (NOT other relatives, but yes your husband is an Equal partner in this child). Both spouses should be happy or at least okay with it. Someone might have to compromise.


ofc the husband has to like it too. that's not the question here.

the question is about the grandparents of the new baby. yes, it may be kibbud av vaeim, but does that mean you need to choose their wishes over your own every single time?

say I really don't like the name and decide to add another name, they'll be mad. it's their way or the highway. it may be a mitzvah of KAV but do you have to put yourself aside completely for this?

I appreciate the source, agreer. at least I know it's mentioned somewhere and has some basis, not just control and kavod.
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amother




Papayawhip
 

Post Wed, Aug 04 2021, 11:28 pm
agreer wrote:
If you really want a source, it's part of "Kabed es Avicha v'es Imecha". I have the Artscroll book on Kibbud Av V'em and it's in there.

That's why Ashkenazim name after the dead - to give their parents satisfaction of knowing their relatives will not be forgotten, and Sfardim name after their own living parents - it's a huge source of nachas.

These are time-honored customs dating back centuries. Yes, in Tanach they didn't do this, but for the last few hundred years, both Ashkenazim and Sfardim named after relatives as a way of honoring their parents.

The idea of choosing a name is actually a newfangled concept nowadays, and everyone who thinks it's "their right" is missing sensitivity to the mesorah. Yes, the parents have ruach hakodesh in choosing the name, but choosing a familial name doesn't lessen the ruach hakodesh. I find it so, so arrogant that women think they have a right to choose their own name because they carried the baby for 9 months... well, who cared for you and supported you for 18/20/25 years? Who paid for your wedding? Don't they deserve the best form of comfort and honor?

If your parents don't care, then fine...choose your own name, gezunteheit...and THANK THOSE PARENTS OF YOURS! And if you want your own children to choose their own names, then be this type of parent.

But if your parents do care, or one of the spouses does care, then yes...it is a MITZVAH to honor your parents by choosing a name of their relative.


Choosing a name is not a new concept! It goes back to the torah. Think about why yitzchok was named that, or why each shevet was given their name! On the contrary names used to have major meaning behind them. It's a new concept to name after the dead. And it says parents get nevuah when it comes time to choosing their name. I love how people think kabed as avicha is the only the mitzva in the torah and it pretty much makes kids slaves and zombies. It's taken so far out of context it's just sad at this point.
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amother




Papayawhip
 

Post Wed, Aug 04 2021, 11:32 pm
amother [ OP ] wrote:
ofc the husband has to like it too. that's not the question here.

the question is about the grandparents of the new baby. yes, it may be kibbud av vaeim, but does that mean you need to choose their wishes over your own every single time?

say I really don't like the name and decide to add another name, they'll be mad. it's their way or the highway. it may be a mitzvah of KAV but do you have to put yourself aside completely for this?

I appreciate the source, agreer. at least I know it's mentioned somewhere and has some basis, not just control and kavod.


It's not honoring your parents to give into abusive behavior. Their way or the highway and anger are just not part of the torah. And no the torah doesn't say cease to exist so that your parents can use every part of you to satisfy cravings. It's really messed up that people think that's what honoring parents means.
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Persevere




 
 
 
 

Post Wed, Aug 04 2021, 11:40 pm
amother [ OP ] wrote:
ofc the husband has to like it too. that's not the question here.

the question is about the grandparents of the new baby. yes, it may be kibbud av vaeim, but does that mean you need to choose their wishes over your own every single time?

say I really don't like the name and decide to add another name, they'll be mad. it's their way or the highway. it may be a mitzvah of KAV but do you have to put yourself aside completely for this?

I appreciate the source, agreer. at least I know it's mentioned somewhere and has some basis, not just control and kavod.


I agree. (For some reason I thought I read above that your husband wanted the family name and you don't.) I don't think grandparents should choose the name.

Of course you would want to consider their feelings but at the end of the day, it is 100% up to the parents.
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amother




Canary
 

Post Wed, Aug 04 2021, 11:47 pm
There's no halachic source for the practice. It's a thing some people do.

Naming for relatives can be a lovely way to honor parents and remember departed relatives, so we did it. But as someone who was saddled with an ugly name because my parents wanted to make their parents happy, I have made clear to my own children that they are not bound to use a name if they don't like it.
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thanks




 
 
 
 

Post Thu, Aug 05 2021, 7:31 am
I tell my children that whatever they name their children, they carry the legacy of their great grandparents and those who lived before them.

Can you somehow get that across to dh parents? That your children carry the legacy regardless of the name.
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amother




Lotus
 

Post Thu, Aug 05 2021, 7:32 am
Re hating a specific name. My father a"h had 2 names, one of which I couldn't use because my dh has a living grandfather with that name. All my siblings children are called by the first name, a typical nice name. The second name is extremely atypical and I didn't really like it, but it was extremely important to me to name my first boy after my father, and not name him a different name also and be called by the other name. We tried to get used to the name before his bris, but we actually didn't. People squirmed by his bris, they thought I'm insane for naming just that one name.
Guess what, he is the cutest child ever, lol he's almost out of elementary school,a really good boy, learns well, has many friends, and many people have told me that he makes them love the name. It took me awhile, probably even over a year, but I absolutely adore the name now
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amother




Red
 

Post Thu, Aug 05 2021, 7:34 am
Yes, the reason we do it is actually to honor the living relatives of that person. It is a very serious minhag and I'm appalled you are making issue with it. If you have a personal shaila, ask a rav. That doesn't mean it is a bad minhag.
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amother




RosePink
 

Post Thu, Aug 05 2021, 7:39 am
amother [ Red ] wrote:
Yes, the reason we do it is actually to honor the living relatives of that person. It is a very serious minhag and I'm appalled you are making issue with it. If you have a personal shaila, ask a rav. That doesn't mean it is a bad minhag.


It’s a serious minhag to guilt trip a couple who just had a baby as to which relative they name after? Just so we’re clear, all my children are named after relatives. The names are meaningful to me and my husband, and also relatives. They were named to honor the people they were named after- my parents and grandparents and DH’s great grandparents.
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amother




Red
 

Post Thu, Aug 05 2021, 7:50 am
amother [ RosePink ] wrote:
It’s a serious minhag to guilt trip a couple who just had a baby as to which relative they name after? Just so we’re clear, all my children are named after relatives. The names are meaningful to me and my husband, and also relatives. They were named to honor the people they were named after- my parents and grandparents and DH’s great grandparents.


Sometimes the grandparents overstep boundaries but that doesn't mean the minhag isn't serious. My parents and inlaws chose the names for all of my children except one and that's fine because I want to keep the minhag which is to honor the living by giving names of the deceased.
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amother




Ginger
 

Post Thu, Aug 05 2021, 8:04 am
agreer wrote:
If you really want a source, it's part of "Kabed es Avicha v'es Imecha". I have the Artscroll book on Kibbud Av V'em and it's in there.

That's why Ashkenazim name after the dead - to give their parents satisfaction of knowing their relatives will not be forgotten, and Sfardim name after their own living parents - it's a huge source of nachas.

These are time-honored customs dating back centuries. Yes, in Tanach they didn't do this, but for the last few hundred years, both Ashkenazim and Sfardim named after relatives as a way of honoring their parents.

The idea of choosing a name is actually a newfangled concept nowadays, and everyone who thinks it's "their right" is missing sensitivity to the mesorah. Yes, the parents have ruach hakodesh in choosing the name, but choosing a familial name doesn't lessen the ruach hakodesh. I find it so, so arrogant that women think they have a right to choose their own name because they carried the baby for 9 months... well, who cared for you and supported you for 18/20/25 years? Who paid for your wedding? Don't they deserve the best form of comfort and honor?

If your parents don't care, then fine...choose your own name, gezunteheit...and THANK THOSE PARENTS OF YOURS! And if you want your own children to choose their own names, then be this type of parent.

But if your parents do care, or one of the spouses does care, then yes...it is a MITZVAH to honor your parents by choosing a name of their relative.


You can't source from an english artscroll book. For all we know it's says there that it's a nice Minhag that adds to kibud av v'em. That's not a halachik source. A halachik source would be a rishon or an acharon, shulchan aruch/kitzur shulchan aruch, Mishna berura...

A halachik source that I know is that the Ben Ish Chai, for Sephardim, mentions that it could be a way of honoring one's (living) father, but that the new parents should ask the father permission first. And that's not a blatent halachik statement by any means.

Also, many (most?) Sephardim do not have the minhag of naming for their parents and just choose names. As a life long Sephardi, living in a very big Sephardic community, married to a Sephardi from a different very big community, I had never heard of this (beyond some very few people naming their son the husband's father's name) until I got moved to the Syrian part of NY (Brooklyn).

I completely disagree with your post. There is nothing haughty or modern or wrong with parents choosing the name. It is their actual right. If there are strong minhagim involved, as with all minhagim, that is a definite consideration. But not at any cost, and that's certainly not permission for parents and in laws to torture and coerce children.
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thanks




 
 
 
 

Post Thu, Aug 05 2021, 8:10 am
amother [ Red ] wrote:
Yes, the reason we do it is actually to honor the living relatives of that person. It is a very serious minhag and I'm appalled you are making issue with it. If you have a personal shaila, ask a rav. That doesn't mean it is a bad minhag.

It's nothing to be appealed about. Noone is upset about the MI hag, it about the machlokes people create.

Do you know where the name shneur comes from? There were 2 grandfathers meir. Hence, she-Ohr. Today if anybody did that, both sides would get angry and say they did not get the name. Yet, it's considered a perfectly valid and chashuv name.
Also, it was only a few generations ago that names like Baila, feigy, shprintzy, frummy, etc were made up. All the Yiddish names are from about 500- 1000 years ago. Imagine making up a new name today. When did this become such a serious minhag that people should pressure and fight about?
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