Mishpacha double take- this week

amother

Oatmeal

Sun, Aug 15 2021, 2:21 pm

Chayalle wrote:

That's true for a wedding, but in my circles, families sit together on Shabbos.

How does halacha change from a wedding to shabbos? What's a difference which day of the week it is?

I'm asking because I'm curious.

amother

Yellow

Sun, Aug 15 2021, 2:22 pm

amother [ Oatmeal ] wrote:

How does halacha change from a wedding to shabbos? What's a difference which day of the week it is?

I'm asking because I'm curious.

She said families sit together.
There’s no halachic problems.

LovesHashem

Sun, Aug 15 2021, 2:57 pm

amother [ Oatmeal ] wrote:

Why can't they sit together at weddings then?

Sheva brachos is usually just family or a few close friends.

Mixed seating at wedding mean all of the other guests are seated with people that is not family and can lead to mingling.

amother

Oatmeal

Sun, Aug 15 2021, 3:02 pm

LovesHashem wrote:

Sheva brachos is usually just family or a few close friends.

Mixed seating at wedding mean all of the other guests are seated with people that is not family and can lead to mingling.

If there's two sides, the kallah and chatan side then there's automatically not only next of kin relatives in the same room which this halacha of a mechutza refers to.

I am curious why if it is a bigger crowd it is asur but once it becomes a smaller crowd it becomes mutar.

I understood that its not about the size of the group. Its about what makes up the group.

Chayalle

Sun, Aug 15 2021, 3:05 pm

amother [ Oatmeal ] wrote:

How does halacha change from a wedding to shabbos? What's a difference which day of the week it is?

I'm asking because I'm curious.

weddings have lots of people from lots of different families, and there is dancing. Shabbos Sheva Brachos has two sides of a family. It's not much different than sitting together on a regular Shabbos, with some guests. Our Rav and many others pasken it does not require separate seating.

Chayalle

Sun, Aug 15 2021, 3:06 pm

amother [ Oatmeal ] wrote:

Do you ever invite guests for Shabbos? Do you get a mechitza?
the amount of families and size of group and venue makes a big difference.

LovesHashem

Sun, Aug 15 2021, 3:55 pm

amother [ Oatmeal ] wrote:

A mechitzah is halacha? When dancing - yes, but when eating?

Not about the size of the crowd - it's about the type of crowd. Family is more relaxed than a community gathering.

amother

Diamond

Sun, Aug 15 2021, 4:01 pm

There is no halacha to have separate seating at a wedding! Can't Believe It

(I love when people make up halachos.)
The halacha is that there may not be mixed dancing.
In some places, there is mixed seating and then for dancing, each side goes to their own side of the mechitza.
Of course, in more right wing places, they separate them for the meal as well.
This is true for sheva brachos and bar mitzva.
There is no halacha to seat separately, only to dance separately.
Of course, many communities are makpid to seat separately because they believe in segregating the genders as much as possible. But it's not halacha.

amother

Diamond

Sun, Aug 15 2021, 4:06 pm

amother [ Oatmeal ] wrote:

Afaik, the mechitza is for the shul. Also, there may be a need for a mechitza by dancing but definitely not for eating.

amother

Watermelon

Sun, Aug 15 2021, 4:08 pm

amother [ Diamond ] wrote:

You are being unnecessarily harsh. The mother of the kalla was not obtuse or suggesting they leave Toby behind. She just asked for a bit of cooperation.

Having been a ba'alas simcha myself several times, I know what a responsibility it is to accommodate everyone's needs and preferences, while also tending to a million other details. If one guest is unhappy, it weighs heavily on me to make it right because I feel responsible for the happiness and comfort of my guests while they are attending my simcha.

Here the baalas simcha was faced with a bunch of her own children and grandchildren who were upset on account of one child. I would think that she should be able to have a frank discussion with the child's mother and ask for her cooperation without getting a speech from her. It doesn't make her a heartless person.

Parents of special needs children should be sensitive to the situation as well, and not only demand that others be sensitive towards them. It has to go both ways.

Signed, a parent of a SN child.

The baalas simcha was the not the children's mother she was their grandmother and her children were the ones pressuring her to call Toby's mother. I have a special needs child and I was horrified by the story.

amother

Diamond

Sun, Aug 15 2021, 4:18 pm

amother [ Watermelon ] wrote:

Why is that relevant?
The fact is that it was her simcha and her responsibility to make sure everyone feels comfortable. She wanted her own kids amd grandchildren to feel comfortable there just as much as everyone else.

I also got from the story that if only one of her daughters would have said something, is one thing. But since her two daughters AND her daughter in law said something, it drove home the point to her that the problem was pretty real, bot just coming from one daughter who was being unreasonable.

amother

Oatmeal

Sun, Aug 15 2021, 5:47 pm

LovesHashem wrote:

A mechitzah is halacha? When dancing - yes, but when eating?

Not about the size of the crowd - it's about the type of crowd. Family is more relaxed than a community gathering.

That was my question.
If you believe that there has to be a mechitza by eating then what is the difference between a wedding and a small event?

I honestly don't get it.

amother

Oatmeal

Sun, Aug 15 2021, 5:49 pm

Chayalle wrote:

Do you ever invite guests for Shabbos? Do you get a mechitza?
the amount of families and size of group and venue makes a big difference.

Why does the amount make the difference?
And at which amount do you draw the line?
10? 50? 60? 100?

Maybe I should get a mechitza for when I invite families.
What is the differentiating factor here?

almostlettinggo

Sun, Aug 15 2021, 8:07 pm

I can relate to special needs. I feel for them and their families. At the same time, I concur with others that the parents make sure that the simcha is not disrupted. Yes, we know how sn kids really enjoy simchas and parties-and good for them to enjoy and have a good time. But let's not forget that it's someone else's special day and parents must ensure that there is the least amount of disruption. Yes, children should be taught there are special needs people and we must respect and show them sensitivity. However, the time of the simcha is not the time. Just like we respect kids with special needs and their special behaviors, so too must we respect our normal children. They must be taught. But let's not forget that children will be children.... Hopefully when they grow up they will be mature adults.

amother

Cadetblue

Sun, Aug 15 2021, 8:14 pm

amother [ Lime ] wrote:

The pain of being singled out and not given a seat at the table far outweighs the inconvenience of finding some other solution.

The onus lies with the SN parent. Nobody else. & it doesn’t have to be a whole dramatic event. A bit of sensitivity to the ba’al Simcha & the kallah & chosson. It IS their day after all

amother

Diamond

Sun, Aug 15 2021, 8:37 pm

amother [ Oatmeal ] wrote:

That was my question.
If you believe that there has to be a mechitza by eating then what is the difference between a wedding and a small event?

I honestly don't get it.

Oatmeal. Your question is disingenuous, or maybe you aren't getting something basic.

Theres halacha and then there's social or community standards.

The reason we have a mechitza by a wedding, and in many places where these is a large gathering of men and women is because as a community, we like to keep the genders as separate as possible. This is not a matter of how you hold- it's not halacha. It's just a community standard.
A wedding has an additionalreason, which is that after the eating there is dancing, and that does require a mechitza.

Now, when there is a smaller, more intimate event, many people won't bother with a mechitza, because it truly is not necessary lehalacha, and we trust that people will act appropriately.

And then there are some people who will insist on a mechitza even when it's just close family because separation of the genders is of paramount importance to them.
I have a close relative who will not attend his own niece's sheva brachos in his sisters house if there is no mechitza. There is absolutely no requirement but it's a personal standard that he has.

allthingsblue

Sun, Aug 15 2021, 9:12 pm

amother [ Watermelon ] wrote:

Could the whole family including Toby’s siblings have sat together? Or maybe just cousins on Toby’s side? Couldn’t another solution have been arranged?