Mishpacha double take- this week

amother

Oatmeal

Sun, Aug 15 2021, 9:57 pm

amother [ Diamond ] wrote:

Oatmeal. Your question is disingenuous, or maybe you aren't getting something basic.

Theres halacha and then there's social or community standards.

The reason we have a mechitza by a wedding, and in many places where these is a large gathering of men and women is because as a community, we like to keep the genders as separate as possible. This is not a matter of how you hold- it's not halacha. It's just a community standard.
A wedding has an additionalreason, which is that after the eating there is dancing, and that does require a mechitza.

Now, when there is a smaller, more intimate event, many people won't bother with a mechitza, because it truly is not necessary lehalacha, and we trust that people will act appropriately.

And then there are some people who will insist on a mechitza even when it's just close family because separation of the genders is of paramount importance to them.
I have a close relative who will not attend his own niece's sheva brachos in his sisters house if there is no mechitza. There is absolutely no requirement but it's a personal standard that he has.

I'm sorry if I'm coming across disingenuous.

For years I've been under the impression that a mechitza in the Torah/yeshiva communities was very strongly upheld.

When we got married an aufruf was the only simcha that didn't always have a mechitza because it was one family.

The Sheva brochos always had mechitzas because it is two separate families.
The head table where the couple sat served as a divider.

I wasn't aware that things have changed so drastically in the Torah/Yeshiva world and I wanted to understand the reasoning.

It is ok I can ask around irl.

LovesHashem

Mon, Aug 16 2021, 1:10 am

The only place I see mechitzas during Sheba brochos have been chassidish circles, or if it was made by a boys yeshiva or something that involved a lot of people not related.

If it’s just a smaller group maybe seperate tables. Like we had one sheva brochos my husbands married friends made, and we were all young couples under the age of 27. In that case the wives had a separate as did the men. Me and DH had our own table at the front of the room.

amother

Diamond

Mon, Aug 16 2021, 1:44 am

allthingsblue wrote:

Could the whole family including Toby’s siblings have sat together? Or maybe just cousins on Toby’s side? Couldn’t another solution have been arranged?

Maybe if they had advance notice.
But to change around seating at the last minute is very hard. Again, as someone who is close with a party planner who does this for a living, I know a little bit the amount of work that goes into planning these things. A last minute change is usually not feasible. And it's unfair to expect the family to do so.

amother

Diamond

Mon, Aug 16 2021, 1:53 am

amother [ Oatmeal ] wrote:

I'm not saying anything has changed over the years. I actually dont know that it has one was or another. (I live OOT, so I dont know what is done in Lakweood.)

Again, I'm talking about halacha vs community standard.

There is no halachic imperative to have a mechitza by meals. Some people want a mechitza and that is fine.

In my experience, it is very much a thing in the more heimish, chasidish circles. Not as much in yeshivish circles.

The mechitza serves as a halachic barrier in a shul. To extrapolate from there and say we want a mechitza during eating, that's fine and good, but not a halachic imperative.

And therefore to ask the question, what is the halachic difference between eating with 200 people vs 30 people....honestly, there is none. In both cases, it is permitted to eat mixed or separate, with or without a mechitza.

You can understand however, that when there are a lot of people, especially of there are a lot of bochurim and young girls it makes more sense to put up a divider even by eating so as to make everyone more comfortable.

I believe that at Agudah conventions and Torah Umesorah conventions, there are no mechitzas. Can anyone confirm?

Purple2

Mon, Aug 16 2021, 1:59 am

I was very disturbed by Toby’s mothers reaction.
Someone is hosting you in a hotel for Shabbos. It’s not a given that you get to enjoy a free vacation. Be gracious to the hostess who is paying for a very expensive weekend.
I think the kallah amother was extremely patient and Toby’s mother was rude.
I worked with sn children and have relatives with sn. They are all realistic and responsible. I can’t think of any of them that would not have a plan in place for both the wedding and even more so a full Shabbos weekend in a hotel where the change of schedule would for sure cause behavioural issues

amother

Oatmeal

Mon, Aug 16 2021, 8:23 am

amother [ Diamond ] wrote:

I know that there are no mechitzas at Agudah.

My yeshivish classmates did have. Thats why I thought it is still a thing.

amother

Butterscotch

Mon, Aug 16 2021, 8:45 am

amother [ Sand ] wrote:

This is what the Simcha is in honor on - celebrating the milestone. But how exactly are you celebrating, or in other words, enjoying or having fun in account of the celebration? One large part of that is that you share a meal with extended family members with whom you don't regularly dine with. You get to shmooze and catch up and relax with them & have adult style conversations.

My sister recently made a wedding, and for shabbos Sheva brachos, it was open seating. Everyone sat wherever they wanted some kids sat together, some parents sat with their kids. We were all celebrating. I don’t go to a Simcha eager to not sit with my kids. That thought doesn’t even enter my mind. Who I am sitting with doesn’t matter, I will converse with whomever it is, or not, and when I want to talk to someone I will talk to them. I didn’t sit with my nieces at my nieces wedding, but I talked to all of them, and my others siblings children too….

Chayalle

Mon, Aug 16 2021, 9:07 am

amother [ Oatmeal ] wrote:

I know that there are no mechitzas at Agudah.

My yeshivish classmates did have. Thats why I thought it is still a thing.

I have seen some very ultra RW yeshivish people have mechitzas but it definitely is not mainstream. Most regular yeshivish/JPF will not have mechitzas at a Sheva Brachos. If it is several different families there is often separate seating but no mechitza. But on Shabbos it's expected that families sit together.

Like I'm thinking at my nephew's aufruf, my SIL made a large rectangular table and DH's whole family sat together. She was careful with place cards so my girls wouldn't end up sitting right next to adult nephews, etc..., but we were all at one extended table. Same for the Kallah's relatives that came, they had their own table.

I have a relative whose child married someone from a very RW ultra yeshivish family. There were alot of issues about the mechitza and seating (and other things that the other side were very my-way-or-the-highway about). They asked their (yeshivish, very accepted) Rav and he said it's not a halacha to have separate seating. So the Mechutan actually called the Rav to argue with him, and the Rav did not back down from his position that it is NOT halacha.

(yeah, I can tell you with 100% certainty that if we were ever in that situation my DH would just give in. I can also tell you that I pray with all my heart that my girls marry into more easygoing families who don't make so many issues about anything and everything.)

amother

DarkCyan

Mon, Aug 16 2021, 9:09 am

amother [ Diamond ] wrote:

I'm a vendor for the simcha industry. There is almost always last minute changes. A good event planner does their best to be prepared. But we always get last minute phone calls that they need to change things. That's how it goes in the frum world where people have lots of kids and there are so many different situations that come up. In the secular world it's not like that, worst case one couple doesn't show. By us if there's a two year old who gets sick on Thu night, that could mean a whole family of 10 people staying home and everything changes. Or the sister who wasn't going to come decides she really wants to, now you have an extra 8 people.

I've heard so many stories in my years in the business. We can almost always make it work out.

amother

Red

Mon, Aug 16 2021, 9:16 am

amother [ Watermelon ] wrote:

The baalas simcha was the not the children's mother she was their grandmother and her children were the ones pressuring her to call Toby's mother. I have a special needs child and I was horrified by the story.

Do you think that children have to be okay with being touched, or having their food touched? Because I was horrified by that, to be honest.

I'll tell you why. I have a relative of a relative that comes to Simchas. And they think I ought to be okay with their grown SN son touching my teenage girls. You see, it doesn't stop if it doesn't stop. And it's not okay.

He may be SN, but he's a MAN.

If the child touches others inappropriately, the parents need to be responsible. It's not okay to come into other people's personal body space.

amother

Navyblue

Mon, Aug 16 2021, 9:20 am

I have a child with a motor coordination disorder.

We were at a chasuna, and he can eat a bit messy when he tries to cut food or when he is serving himself food. It looks like clumsiness, but it's a motor coordination problem.

Someone at the table kept commenting how horrible manners he had, humiliating him.

Please if you see someone clumsy don't assume they aren't trying their best. It's an invisible disorder.

amother

Lime

Mon, Aug 16 2021, 9:37 am

amother [ Cadetblue ] wrote:

The onus lies with the SN parent. Nobody else. & it doesn’t have to be a whole dramatic event. A bit of sensitivity to the ba’al Simcha & the kallah & chosson. It IS their day after all

The onus to not publicly shame someone - an act that is compared to murder - doesn't lie on any particular person. We are all obligated to refrain from such horrific acts.

Chayalle

Mon, Aug 16 2021, 9:42 am

amother [ Lime ] wrote:

The onus to not publicly shame someone - an act that is compared to murder - doesn't lie on any particular person. We are all obligated to refrain from such horrific acts.

Agree. I think in the case of the FF story, a different solution needs to be found. OTOH it's not appropriate to have her unsupervised, crossing boundaries inappropriately. OTOH it's not appropriate to single her out to sit with her parents while all the other cousins sit with each other.

I also think that in a case such as this one, the mother should do more to address these issues with her child, as much as possible. I can tell you that my DD's would not be comfortable with someone putting their hands in their foods, nor touching their hairdos. (I don't think they'd get hysterical, but I do think it would be very uncomfortable for them. And they would not eat that touched food, either.) In the story, it sounds alot like she expects everyone to be accepting about her DD's issues, and IMVHO that's not entirely fair.

amother

Diamond

Mon, Aug 16 2021, 10:18 am

Chayalle wrote:

100% agree

Ema of 5

Mon, Aug 16 2021, 10:33 am

amother [ Diamond ] wrote:

Its nice to be altruistic. But let's not pretend that adults and children dont look forward to the good food, company and program of a shabbos shev brachos. Baalei simcha go to great lengths to ensure their guests have a good time.
So yes, it's a lot more fun for the cousins to be seated together in most cases.
Obviously each family dynamic is different and it has to work out. But I vote that a cousins table is totally the way to go.

That might be what you look forward to, but that’s not the main focus of the Simcha. It’s nice to get together, but don’t forget that you are getting together to celebrate the Simcha. Are your kids going to have less of a good time because there is no kids table? I highly doubt it. What will most likely happen is they will gravitate to each other anyway, no matter where they are seated.

Ema of 5

Mon, Aug 16 2021, 10:38 am

amother [ Oatmeal ] wrote:

Why can't they sit together at weddings then?

At a wedding there is dancing on both sides of the mechitza. Many women here have stated that they are uncomfortable when men come to the ladies side. Shabbos is different. If there IS dancing, it’s usually only men, and they find a place to dance.
(Disclaimer: I personally have no issue with mixed seating or family seating, I’m just explaining why some might.)

Ema of 5

Mon, Aug 16 2021, 10:48 am

amother [ Oatmeal ] wrote:

If the couple acted as a divider, then there was no mechitza. They may have acted as gender dividers, women being on the wife’s side and men being on the husband’s side, but as far as I know there are specifications which a mechitza must meet, and humans can’t meet those specifications.

Chayalle

Mon, Aug 16 2021, 11:48 am

Ema of 4 wrote:

I was thinking of it sort of the way it is at weddings, where the head table is set up such that the Chosson and father and FIL are on the men's side, and the Kallah, her mother, and MIL are on the womens' side (plus grandparents of course...) The mechitza comes up to meet the headtable between the Chosson and Kallah.