SETTS in nyc for my child, can u help me understand this?

amother

Wed, Sep 01 2021, 7:27 am

I live in Manhattan and my dd is getting setts this year.

The yeshiva is small and has 2 setts teachers. One of them wants to work with my dd, but the agency she works for is filing an impartial hearing to say that nobody else is available so she shld get the higher rate of pay.

Of course, I want the setts teacher to get a higher rate, but the agency wants me to sign that I will pay if the doe doesnt pay them.
Can anybody help me understand this?

1) why are they allowed to say nobody else is available, if there is another setts teacher and there are entire lists of setts teachers available?

2) Also,if I dont want to sign (bec I dont want to pay if for denies it), then does anyone know where theres a list of setts teachers to access? ( I've been calling cse whom I'm in contact with but yesterday the supervisor told me shell have someone get back to me, so I'm waiting).

Last year all I did was give the school the setts form that I got in the mail(after I signed) and they serviced my child.

This year, with my son, I just sent the setts teacher the rsa or p4 form from the cse(signed by me) and shell service him.

But, for my dd, the setts teacher wants me to sign that I'll pay if doe wont service but they'll apply to the doe for a higher rate through an impartial hearing which they hope to win. She doesnt use the RSA form.

Can anyone share their experience with me or give any insight about any of the above.

Tia.

octopus

Wed, Sep 01 2021, 7:30 am

I've heard of signing that no one else is available in order to get higher rate. I have never heard of signing something that promises you have to pay if they lose the impartial hearing. I'm not sure I would sign second half.

amother

Winterberry

Wed, Sep 01 2021, 7:36 am

Most P3 providers are not willing to take your case if you are not approved for the enhanced rate. The agency I worked with gave me a list of all SETS providers, from the BOE and they told me to try to find a provider at the regular rate first. I had to call at least 20 from the list and give them a detailed list of all responses.

amother

Wed, Sep 01 2021, 7:50 am

octopus wrote:

Okay. Thanks. I'm going to tell this to the agency.

I have no problem signing that if noone else is available so she should get the enhanced rate.

But, like u said, I dont want to sign that I'm going to pay if doe doesnt pay.

I suspect the agency head will tell me not to worry, "just sign and doe will pay".

Anyway, I may end up with nobody now. I'm trying to get through to the second setts at the school but I dont know if her agency makes me sign similar.

helpful

Wed, Sep 01 2021, 7:53 am

SETSS provider here. Most SETSS providers will not take your child if he/she is not approved for the enhanced rate, including the other SETSS teacher in the school.
If the school is working together with an agency, your child will most likely get approved for the enhanced rate and you will not be held accountable for the additional costs.
If your child does not qualify for the enhanced rate, it'll be your decision whether you want your child to get services and you will pay the difference or you'd rather pass on the services or find a provider for standard rate.

Feel free to PM me. I can send you a list consisting of 518 pages of independent SETSS providers.

amother

Wed, Sep 01 2021, 7:58 am

amother [ Winterberry ] wrote:

Interesting bec. All the years my son had setts, I sent her the RSA or p4 form and she used it. She didnt have me go through this process for the enhanced price.

(Although maybe bec my dds school is small, its harder.)

Thanks to everyone who posted.
You are doing such a chesed helping me with this info. As I'm trying to arrange for my child to get services.

hcrbg

Wed, Sep 01 2021, 8:04 am

helpful wrote:

This!!
Also if you pm me I can give you an agency that can help you they are so emesdik. They don’t do anything that’s not the letter of the law.

amother

Wed, Sep 01 2021, 9:07 am

hcrbg wrote:

This!!
Also if you pm me I can give you an agency that can help you they are so emesdik. They don’t do anything that’s not the letter of the law.

Thanks, but I'm not ready to pm anyone.

If u feel comfortable, u can post the name of the agency. But, if u dont feel comfortable, its okay.

amother

Wed, Sep 01 2021, 9:23 pm

I spoke to the cse and have a list of inde providers.

She doesnt know about providers not using the p4 form. She knows there are impartial hearings, but this is not done right away.

Does anyone have children in nyc getting setts and the setts teacher uses the p4 form?

hcrbg

Wed, Sep 01 2021, 9:26 pm

No one works anymore without the hearings bc no one wants the money when you can get the enhanced rate

amother

Thu, Sep 02 2021, 5:18 am

hcrbg wrote:

No one works anymore without the hearings bc no one wants the money when you can get the enhanced rate

I wonder how honest this is. if I right now sign that I cant find anyone and hire lawyers (through the agency)to get a hearing saying this, id be lying bec if its only the start of the year. Its possible I can find someone who uses p4 like my son's setts teacher.

it is not true that everyone does this because the cse official wouldnt tell me to find someone on the list, and they would never be sending out p4s to parents.

Maybe many providers do this through agencies who get the big bucks, but its not everyone. I was told by the agency that the lawyers must make a case to the doe that the parents are so dedicated that they will be willing to pay out of pocket if have nobody bec the lawyers need to make a strong case(but this is not true bec parents are not willing to pay out of pocket). I have relatives in nyc(not near me) who use p4 forms. I wonder if this is halachically okay to "jump" to an impartial hearing immediately before trying to find someone who accepts p4 form.

Thank you for responding. I understand much more about the process now and will look through the list of inde. providers I have from the doe.

seeker

Thu, Sep 02 2021, 6:33 am

Going to try to answer OP's questions point by point:

1. Talk to the agency about whether you'd really have to pay. It's probably a formality. Agencies only take on cases that they are confident will win. Talk to the agency or to other parents in the school to make sure it's an agency you feel comfortable with. Some of them are excellent and some of them frankly seem like money launderers to me. Have the agency explain the processes to you.

2. You say there is another SETSS provider but do you know that she is available? Yes, ethically if there is someone else available you should take them. But start going through the "whole list" - people are still on the list but no longer working, have taken a full time job in some other school, live/work too far away, etc.

3. Re "all the years your son had SETSS with the P4 form" this is something that has caught on more recently. It's been possible for years but you know how it is, someone decides to make a whole business of it and then it spreads.

4. Yes, I know kids getting SETSS with a regular P4 form currently. These are usually situations where a school has a full caseload, and the provider is getting a lot of groups. Groups pay more than individuals so they're willing to do that at the regular rate, and the school can strike a deal that they'll give you their groups if you also see some individuals, over the course of the school year it's worth it for the provider.

Which is where I struggled to stay on topic and off my soapbox but I'm losing the struggle. The enhanced rate thing started mostly for kids who need a more individualized service. For example, you have a kid with significant dyslexia but high functioning in other academic areas. The best placement for them is a regular school, but a regular SETSS provider with a group of other kids from that class is not going to address this child's learning disability. And a dyslexia specialist isn't working for $40 an hour. So you take that kid to a hearing demonstrating that she needs a specialist and you can't get one for that rate, and the DOE approves a higher rate.

Now, cost of living especially in NY keeps going up. The DOE hasn't changed their contract rates in at least 20 years as far as I know, while giving themselves frequent generous raises. They've made billing harder in some ways. Good luck finding a college student to do homework with your typically developing kid for $40/hour - how do they expect professional special ed services at that rate?

Many providers just kept doing it because that's what there is. If you see kids in groups you can make significantly better money, plus more kids get serviced, so that's usually what happens in schools. However, many kids don't do well in groups. Also, they're supposed to be getting special services targeted to their disability, so if there is a big gap in abilities then it may not be practical for the specialist to see all the kids as a group. For example you could have a class of 20 kids, 4 of them are getting SETSS because their math and reading skills are very poor, and then there's another kid getting SETSS because they have ASD or ADHD or something else interfering with their general ed progress and participation but they read and do math like a whiz. The SETSS group isn't going to work for them. And yet no one else wants to work with them because it's not worth it if it isn't a group. Enter enhanced rate.

Now I'm the other SETSS teacher and I see my colleague is now getting $75/hour for working 1:1 with this bright kid while I'm trying to manage the group dynamics of 4 kids for about the same amount, and last year I didn't even have 4 kids in my group because it was a higher functioning class, I'm thinking enhanced rate sounds like a nice business. I'm not wrong because the DOE has been ripping off me and my colleagues for years and this may be the only way to push back.

Or I'm a parent of a different kid and I see some kids are getting the attention of a private provider, and while technically they're saying my kid's needs are more group-appropriate, I already went through the process to get them special ed because they need extra help and I want my kid getting individual attention too!

The parent of that ASD or dyslexic kid who couldn't be in the regular reading group went to an agency that provides specialized services for ASD or dyslexia (10 years ago they went to a lawyer but B"H now the specialists got together to make things easier). The agency got the enhanced rate, sent them a specialized provider, and used the enhanced funds to get them more specialized supervision, training, and materials. The child got what they needed and the DOE got a good bang for their many bucks, or basically paid the price for not providing properly for these kids in the first place. But now that the other SETSS and the other parents all want this, but they don't qualify for the ASD specialization, now we have agencies popping up specializing just in the enhanced rate process. They're taking the same cut as the specialized agency because after all they need to make their business, but the providers are the same people they were before, they're just told "You work for this agency now because that's who's processing our school's cases" and they say "OK sure" because they're being paid more than the DOE was paying.

So everyone's happy.

Here's who isn't happy:

The DOE. One day soon they are going to look at where their money is going and someone is going to snap back at this hard and I'm not sure what it's going to look like.

The kids who really, truly don't need or qualify for individual services; and their parents. Since the pushier parents or needier kids got the individual provider, there's nobody left to make a group with. And the providers only want to work with groups or with enhanced rate. So now I need to make a case that my kid who's actually fairly typical needs enhanced rate services, or I get nothing. And this is only going to speed up the time that it's going to take the DOE to crack down.

The schools, in some ways. Their kids who could have been in groups now need individual, which means you either run after the parents to sign on with these agencies or you have kids in your classrooms who need services and aren't getting them. You also have more providers coming in and out since each kid gets their own. And you probably don't have enough space for all these individual sessions. Your group resource rooms weren't working for everyone but they were probably working for most people.

It's a great program, it's the only way kids who need specialized services can get it, and it's one of the only ways for providers to get a decent pay rate. However, it's also a racket and I wonder how it will end and who will hurt the most when that happens. I hope it's not the original ASD or dyslexic kid who needed the individual help and the actually specialized agency that gave it to them.

Sorry, hope your original questions got answered well enough, this is just one of those trigger topics that gets me up on a soapbox. I'm done now.

BrachaVHatzlocha

Thu, Sep 02 2021, 7:24 am

I do SETSS but am an unable to service your child -- so you can add me to your list. (if you want...PM me for my legal name).
The thing is... SETSS pays about half the rate of regular tutoring, 2/3rds the rate of SEIT so many providers will only do a group, which pays more, or "enhanced" - which is where they go to get the higher rate.

My son has p3 in yeshiva and they use his regular form. I think they do groups.
I would be nervous to sign a form. They agencies know what to do for fight for the enhanced rate. But I have no idea of success rate. I would ask them before signing anything.

amother

Valerian

Thu, Sep 02 2021, 7:42 am

Last year we did it bec of covid so this year they sent me the forms again. I signed the agency said it’s just a formality, but in the end the school doesn’t want it. They say my son is fine in a group (he needs a little help but nothing major he only has 3 hours a week), and they don’t have 50 qualified providers for the 50 kids that need services. Now the agency can send someone off the street but the schools have way more qualified providers who have been trained by them and working for them for years. So I would much rather have my son in a small group with a qualified provider than one on one with a new grad.

seeker

Thu, Sep 02 2021, 9:42 am

Valerian amother, glad your school is holding the reins and trying to make things make sense. Things like what you described could also come back to bite - they fought for the enhanced rate but now the school is only offering a group. Now they need to get the IEP changed back. Is the DOE now going to start wondering if the agency was lying when they said they needed individual so badly in the first place? Maybe COVID worked to explain it that once, but I wonder where this is all heading.

For a while I was supportive of this for special cases but strongly discouraging for more typical cases. But now that it's a whole movement, and now that the DOE has continued to pretty much punish providers with their regular rate (did you see the thread where a therapist gets $250 to work with a kid for less than an hour? They want to pay special ed providers FORTY. And you don't get any cancellation fee if the kid doesn't show up, like any other professional would) I don't know, I still worry about where it's all going to end up but if everyone's doing it then we may just need to move into this reality. I would caution not to get too excited or carried away. Like Valerian's kid, sometimes grouping is better, and if people keep demanding what they don't really need then the end will come faster and harder.

amother

Thu, Sep 02 2021, 9:56 am

seeker wrote:

wow! you really explained everything very well...thanks....

if I dont find someone then I can work with an agency to file an impartial hearing, but im not signing that ill pay if doe denies. yes, it might just be a formality but the agency said they will not do anything if I don't sign. Formality or not, my signature I am responsible. It does mean something.

The agency could file on my behalf and if denied I will refuse to pay, but for me to sign before I know the outcome is ridiculous.

so, right now I have nobody and no agency...ill have to go through the list and if nobody is available then I will have to find an agency that won't make me sign the part about me paying if....

thanks.

amother

Valerian

Thu, Sep 02 2021, 10:07 am

You have to also realize once you enhance you’re opening yourself to yearly iep meetings because of going enhanced last year I had a meeting and lost my sons PT even though he needs it. The administrators decided OT can address it. With regular p3 my other son hadn’t had an iep meeting in 3 years

amother

Thu, Sep 02 2021, 10:48 am

amother [ Valerian ] wrote:

my child is already listed for a yearly iep meeting but my child didnt have one last yr(doe's mistake) so my child will get the same services.

amother

Glitter

Thu, Sep 02 2021, 10:50 am

Seeker,
Yes yes yes
I had to fight for enhanced for my son who has asd for years. This was before the agencies started offering. This is definitely going to cause huge problems and changes in the near future. And I'm happy we are not in that parsha anymore when it happens.
I blame the agencies.
If a child really needs enhanced, the parent will get an ad I ate and fight and the boe will take them seriously. Now everyone is requiring special treatment because the agencies make it easy and the schools are pushing, what will happen in a few years to the kids who really needed it to begin with. Noone will believe them. They can just shut the whole thing down or stop giving setss

seeker

Thu, Sep 02 2021, 11:14 am

Curious if the one who lost the PT is a SETSS racket. My assumption is that a real agency that's there to serve the kids will be having a proper team IEP meeting taking all the kids' services into account. The PT would submit a report and recommendation to continue. On the other hand, if they're operating as a SETSS factory then they just need to get their enhanced SETSS approved and not pay attention to anything else.

I'm happy I learned about this early on and was able to get the real deal. The agency that provides services to my kid has gone above and beyond managing her needs, calling in consultants when needed, supporting the providers to do their job while requiring of them detailed documentation/feedback to see that the job was happening - they earned that enhanced rate and used it exactly as intended. We have team collaboration before every IEP, they listen well to what the parents want as well as talking to the school's coordinator and providers. So now even though I turned around and suddenly almost everyone is pushing for enhanced, I know what to aspire to. I also hope nobody else takes away from the kiddush Hashem of agencies like that who paved a new trail in how to help kids with unique learning needs.