Can my cleaning help do all muktzah

amother

Lemonlime

Sat, Sep 18 2021, 11:25 pm

Ask a sheila. We were told that we should rather not have paid cleaning help on yom tov, and if we must, she can't do any melacha, even if we don't tell her what to do.
I can't imagine it's allowed to have a cleaning lady vacuume and Iron for you on shabbos/yom tov.

amother

Lemonlime

Sat, Sep 18 2021, 11:43 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

My neighbors and some family members have help that does everything on yt just like regular weekday etc. and I was alway wondering how that’s possible.

I wonder if they asked a sheila. Having a non jew do melacha for you is amura l'akim. And paying help for work on shabbos/yom tov is a subject on it's own, it's not so simple.

Fabulous

Sat, Sep 18 2021, 11:44 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

My neighbors and some family members have help that does everything on yt just like regular weekday etc. and I was alway wondering how that’s possible.

We grew up with them being able to do most things that we can do ie. Sweep and wash dishes etc. mopping was a maybe. Doing actual laundry with a machine and vacuuming was a no no bec of maaras Ayin. But you should really ask your own shaila

Sewsew_mom

Sun, Sep 19 2021, 12:40 am

They can do anything you can do, just their own ways. For instance.. You can wash dishes, so if they clean dishes how they want. But you can't wash laundry or iron on Yom Tov, so they can't either. They can use a sponge or a mop to clean even though you can't because you can technically clean the floor with a spray bottle and paper towel. Get the gist? Anything you can do on chag they can but they can do it however they want. But I don't think you can tell them how they should do it.
I'm surprised a rav would tell someone not to have help on Yom Tov or shabbos.. That's pretry much a cop out answer when there are clearly ways that can be worked out.

Last edited by Sewsew_mom on Sun, Sep 19 2021, 1:02 am; edited 1 time in total

penguin

Sun, Sep 19 2021, 12:40 am

I learned she can do anything you can do, just if it's easier to do it via melacha she can.

So, for example, you can wash dishes with a special plastic item. She can use a regular sponge (and hot water!)

You could wipe the floor with certain things if very sticky. She could just wash it (I think, not so sure about that one).

Something that makes noise like dishwasher or vacuum is more of a problem though.

So def AYLOR!

amother

Sun, Sep 19 2021, 12:42 am

I don’t pay her on yt. I have my set hours and routine with her and by now she knows I pay her after. I never gave her more then dishes , mopping etc. but then I thought if she’s mopping then why can’t she iron. No one see hers doing it more then they see her mopping. Eve though I have a separate room for ironing.

amother

Maroon

Sun, Sep 19 2021, 12:42 am

penguin wrote:

We were told even washing floors is not so simple. Can spot clean but not do a mop job

salt

Sun, Sep 19 2021, 1:18 am

I don't know the halacha, but doesn't it say in the Torah:

לא תעשה כל מלאכה אתה ובנך וביתך עבדך ואמתך ובהמתך וגרך אשר בשעריך

I don't know exactly what the עבד is referring to here, maybe it's just an עבד עברי not a non-Jewish cleaning lady, but even your animals are not allowed to do work.
So I can't see logically how it's allowed.
But hey, in halacha there are plenty of illogical conclusions, so I would ask a Rav, not ask on here.

amother

Lemonlime

Sun, Sep 19 2021, 2:20 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

The issue isn't paying her on yom tov itself. You can't pay her for working on yom tov.
And ask a sheila about mopping, not everyone holds that it's allowed.

amother

NeonBlue

Sun, Sep 19 2021, 4:43 am

I have daily cleaning help. I was told once that I can tell her to do things I can do. But she can do it how she wants. For example, I can tell her to clean the dishes. But she can use hot water. She actually uses the dishwasher because she Wants to, but I don’t Tell her to. She uses it all week and sees no difference on Shabbos or yt. I tell her no vacuum or washing machine Shabbos and yt. If there’s laundry that wasn’t finished on erev she ends up folding and putting away on shabbos. I don’t specifically tell her to, she just does it as part of her routine. Otherwise she makes the beds, cleans bathrooms, empties bedroom hampers into laundry room hampers, puts away toys and sweeps and mops.
I never told her to mop, just sweep. But she’s see it’s dirty and mop it. Must I tell her no mopping?

Hashem_Yaazor

Sun, Sep 19 2021, 8:11 am

They can do whatever you can do, but they can do it in a way that isn't muttar for you if you don't ask or hint. That means they can wash dishes on Shabbos and choose to use the hot water if you don't say anything. You need to provide cleaning solutions that are muttar for you to do; if they dig around and find a mop instead of a squeegee, you don't have to stop them because they're doing it for themselves, not you.

But they can't run a dishwasher or vacuum even if you say wash dishes or clean the floor (both have muttar methods) due to uvda d'chol.

And they can't do anything that is assur for you to do in any fashion like laundering (or ironing).

Hope that helps!

Ema of 5

Sun, Sep 19 2021, 8:25 am

amother [ Lemonlime ] wrote:

I wonder if they asked a sheila. Having a non jew do melacha for you is amura l'akim. And paying help for work on shabbos/yom tov is a subject on it's own, it's not so simple.

We did ask a shaila, and we were told she can do whatever she wants. It is not amira l’akum if you don’t ask or even imply what you want her to do.
When she does come on shabbos or chag, the money is included in what we pay her weekly, so it’s not an issue. You can’t pay on shabbos for shabbos, u less you arrange before “the money will be in xxx spot.” If the chag falls out on one of her regular days then it’s for sure not an issue, just pay what you normally would. We pay our cleaning lady every Friday, so having her here on rosh hashana was just included in what we normally pay. When she comes special on shabbos or special on a chag that’s not her normal day, either we pay her extra on Friday or we tel her before where the money will be left.
AGAIN, WE ASKED A SHAILA AND THIS IS WHAT WE WERE TOLD. EVERYONE needs to ask there own shaila, because there are many different opinions on this.

Miri1

Sun, Sep 19 2021, 12:20 pm

Regarding floors, there is a separate shayla as to whether you are allowed to clean a floor, even if you do it in a way that doesn't involve melacha. That is why I specified that this is an addendum to the general question of having a cleaning lady over Y"T.
Also the type of working arrangement that you have will make a difference. It's really a question for you lor.

Interestingly, the first question the rav asked was: Do you know that she's not Jewish?

amother

Linen

Sun, Sep 19 2021, 12:25 pm

amother [ Kiwi ] wrote:

Just have to say it:
Objects are muktzah, actions are melacha.
Sorry, pet peeve of mine (just ask my students Smile

)

I’m glad someone else commented on this!