Dd asking to wear jeans

amother

Sun, Oct 03 2021, 2:01 pm

My dd (16) has been asking to wear jeans/pants. My heart hurts to watch her struggle with her Yiddishkeit, but I don’t know how to help her. Should I let her make the decision, but make it clear that I don’t support it? Should I encourage her to strengthen her relationship with Hashem? Any advice and support is appreciated.

amother

Vanilla

Sun, Oct 03 2021, 2:08 pm

It's great that you have a relationship where she can share that with you, but I don't think it is wise for you to fund it.
There is a difference between being supportive and an enabler.

Last edited by amother on Mon, Dec 20 2021, 4:49 pm; edited 1 time in total

amother

Burlywood

Sun, Oct 03 2021, 2:13 pm

I wonder sometimes what I would do in this scenario. I think I would not approve it and I would not tell her she can, but neither would I interfere if I found out she was going behind my back. And I would remind her that when she is an adult and moves out, she can make her own decision.

Why do you think it would help to tell her to strengthen her relationship with Hashem? That's not something that is incompatible with jeans.

amother

Sun, Oct 03 2021, 2:18 pm

SafeAtLast wrote:

but I don't think it is wise for you to fund it.
There is a difference between being supportive and an enabler.

When you say ‘fund’, do you literally mean giving her the money for jeans? Or are you just referring to allowing her to wear them? I would never pay for her to buy jeans. I told her that if she would like to wear tznius skirts, I will buy her as many as she needs (ofc within reasonable price range,) and willing to splurge if necessary. However, I still don’t know if I should allow her to go out and buy her own jeans. Am I responsible for her decision if I allow her to violate the halacha?
(I hope I did the quoting thing correctly, I’m a little bit of a newbie here)

amother

Aster

Sun, Oct 03 2021, 2:18 pm

Why does she want to wear jeans? Can you come up with other clothing that is maybe pushing it for your circles but less problematic? For example if jean skirts aren't worn, allowing that etc...

amother

Sun, Oct 03 2021, 2:22 pm

amother [ Burlywood ] wrote:

Why do you think it would help to tell her to strengthen her relationship with Hashem? That's not something that is incompatible with jeans.

I think if she strengthens her relationship with Hashem, she would have an easier time seeing the beauty in tznius (and in some of the other mitzvos she struggles with). Yes, she can still work on her yiddishkeit while wearing pants, but I feel it would be contradictory for her to do so while violating the halacha of tznius.

I have told her that once she moves out, she can do whatever she pleases, and that I will not get in the way of her free will when she is independent.

shabbatiscoming

Sun, Oct 03 2021, 2:22 pm

I say pick your battles. This is not one of them that I would make into a big issue or she will rebel in an even bigger way.
One of my younger siblings started wearing SHORT skirts in high school. My parents did not make it into an issue even though I a sure it hurt them to see her dressing that way. Instead they just loved her and showed her the judaism they loved and let her get through her teenage years. Thankfully she dresses much better now.

If you make a large issue about this, who knows what else she will rebel with? Just accept her and love her.

amother

Sun, Oct 03 2021, 2:27 pm

I don’t know for sure why she wants to wear *jeans* specifically. But she has brought it up more than once, and even though she’s respectful about it, she seems frustrated at this point. In our circles, jean skirts are very common and normal in her age group. I already allow her to wear jean skirts, and have even gone out of my religious comfort zone to let her wear jean skirts that don’t cover her knees. Of course, the skirts end up riding up and magically shrinking in the wash, to the point where they are not at all tznius. (One or two inches above the knee, and tight.) I know she also talks to boys, which I am okay with because I trust her, and have talked honestly with her about it. I think maybe she is seeking the attention of boys her age?

PinkFridge

Sun, Oct 03 2021, 2:32 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Please discuss this with your IRL mentor. I don't believe this is so. Each mitzvah is a diamond in itself. She needs to be endorsed for every possible spiritual thing she does. And frankly, I don't know how much worse jeans are than not covering knees. (Not that I would ever start assigning points.) Something I've stressed to my girls is that while of course we value the details (Hashem is in the details) so much about tznius is what we project and we personally know some very unprovocative who wear pants, don't cover their hair, etc.

PinkFridge

Sun, Oct 03 2021, 2:33 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

I don't know you or your exact community. Again please get IRL guidance and it doesn't have to be local but someone you actually speak to.
And always let her feel that she can connect to Hashem, even if she has trouble with certain mitzvos, like tznius. Lehavdil, even Esav kept mitzvos like kibud av va'eim. Please don't let her throw out the baby with the bathwater.

notshanarishona

Sun, Oct 03 2021, 2:34 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

I would tell her you don’t support it / agree with it but she is a big girl and can do it if she wants. At 16 she is just a jump away from being an independent adult and it’s a little too late to old to dictate what she can wear. I would also make sure she knows what ever the societal consequences will be for dressing that way. Is she in a school that allows it, etc.
It’s great that even though she is struggling she still asks you

PinkFridge

Sun, Oct 03 2021, 2:38 pm

notshanarishona wrote:

Excellent reply. And OP, I can't like the bolded enough.
What's great with this reply is that it leaves religion out of it. It's not like she can't daven because she's making these decisions, she needs to be aware though that there are going to be ramifications that she can't control.

amother

Sun, Oct 03 2021, 2:41 pm

Pink Fridge,
She was not raised BY, we are on what I would consider the yeshivish end of MO. I generally consider myself to be open minded as a parent, and as a religious parent. Growing up, I allowed her to wear short sleeves until Bas Mitzvah, and I still let her wear ankle socks, pencil skirts, not super strict about skirts covering the knees, etc. The classic story… skirts starting to get shorter slowly, clothes start to get tighter.. In general a good girl, but recently I have seen her start to struggle a bit religiously. While it is not accepted in our circles for women to wear pants, I was not entirely shocked when she asked.
As far as a mentor, I’m not sure who would be the right person to speak to. I don’t know if I can ask my Rav..

amother

Vanilla

Sun, Oct 03 2021, 2:43 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Yes by not fund I meant not paying for it.
She is 16. She does not need your permission to wear whatever she wants at that age.
You can allow it or not allow it, but you would be really lucky if she would listen.

Last edited by amother on Mon, Dec 20 2021, 4:48 pm; edited 1 time in total

shabbatiscoming

Sun, Oct 03 2021, 2:44 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Then let her get there on her own, not by you making her see the beauty.

behappy2

Sun, Oct 03 2021, 2:52 pm

I would get her a mentor to help her with her religious struggles. Nothing to do with the jeans. And get someone to guide me. Maybe post where you live and see if someone knows a mentor in your area.

amother

Fuchsia

Sun, Oct 03 2021, 2:54 pm

Op, I'm from a BY/yeshivish community, so things might be a little different. My dd is "at risk" "struggling" probably even OTD. I've been told that my job right now is to show her that I love her and accept her however she chooses to be and act. She dresses completely not tznius, jeans, pants, shorts, cleavage. For a while she wasn't shomer Shabbos, but now she's trying very hard to be good about it. She's very respectful and won't walk in the neighborhood or go out with anyone in our family in very revealing clothing, she'll wear long pants and short sleeves, no shorts, no sleeveless tops or cleavage. She saves her revealing clothing for in the house or out with her friends.

B"H we have a good relationship today, and I credit it to the fact that I always accepted her, no matter what she was doing or wearing.

PinkFridge

Sun, Oct 03 2021, 3:04 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Are there are educators who would get you?
Here's the thing: it's not like she was an intown BY girl making these requests. The disconnects aren't as great. I don't know what kind of school you send her to. There might be different cliques and girls who do wear jeans who are still acceptable students in the school. But like notshana said, what are the social statements she'd be making?

amother

Sun, Oct 03 2021, 9:00 pm

OP here. Thank you all for the support and advice. Of course, it’s still a complicated matter, and it won’t be figured out and solved overnight. However, I do appreciate everyone’s input, and I will definitely take some time to speak with my mentor about it, and of course speak to my daughter. I most likely will come to a compromise with Dd, but still not sure what that would mean for us.
@shabbatiscoming, thank you for sharing that story with me about your sister. It gave me more perspective to the situation, and gave me a bit of hope.
Of course, as I have always tried my best to do, I will continue being a good role model for Dd and make sure she knows that I will love her no matter what she does, or how she dresses. I have always believed that love comes first.