I am so upset! adults hitting, shouting at etc. children

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Forum -> Parenting our children

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mimivan

Thu, Apr 10 2008, 12:17 am

I'm not opposed to corporal punishment in all cases, but he sings to me, be careful about potching on the face....

He*Sings*To*Me

Thu, Apr 10 2008, 12:21 am

Yes, of course, I'm careful...
the idea isn't to inflict injury or harm, it is to startle, to alert, and as a result, provide an extrinsic deterrent when she clearly demonstrates she has no intention of intrinsically controlling herself.

freidasima

Thu, Apr 10 2008, 2:48 am

You want to scare kids? Hitting doesn't help, it teaches them to hit.

I heard of a mother who kept telling her 8 year old to put away her boots. She wouldn't. She told her that if she doesn't take them off the carpet and put them away she will burn them. The kid didn't. The mother took a match and started to burn the top of the boot. The kid put them away. Did it help? No but it makes a terrific story she tells me (the kid)...

chavs

Thu, Apr 10 2008, 4:46 am

op, I know what you mean, it hurts me physically to see this as well. What another other poster said about trying to put it aside when you hear about this or if there is nothing you can is true because it can eat you up and make you unable to function if you dont, so for your own family try as hard as you can to not focus on it if there is nothing you can do.
If however there is something constructive you can do then act.
I personally wouldnt say anything if its clearly a parent who is in control of themselves and the child is in an appropiate age (if there is such a thing) to understand, and the parent is not hurting the child but basically has a different attitude to disciple then you.
Personally the above scenario still bothers me but I wouldnt say anything at least not if I didnt think it would help.

chavs

Thu, Apr 10 2008, 4:55 am

to the amother on the first page who wrote that you yell at you kids and see other parent who do.
I am sorry no one has offered to cover your costs of what was destroyed. but I am shocked that you would think that its appropiate even for you who "belive" in hitting and shouting, to do it in public and cause your child that humiliation in front of others! To me that is going from bad parenting to outright mean!
Secondly what are you showing your children when you hit or yell at them? Are you showing love? are you showing respect ot are you showing that if you are bigger or oldre its ok to hit or yell? it beggs the question of if they come home with a note from a teacher that they have hit someone, how can you tell them that its wrong, when they are learning from yuor example.
btw I am writting under my name even though I am clearly judging you. Generally I am really careful not to hudge, but when you are judging mothers who in my opinion are doing the right thing with their kid (maybe not in regards to paying your losses of what they broke) I qactually dont feel wrong or bad about it. (maybe I should)

Seraph

Thu, Apr 10 2008, 6:14 am

Ok, I used to be against the idea of corporal punishment of any kid.
I actually changed my mind, somewhat.

I think if my kid were to do something really dangerous, I would give a patch, to show them "What you did is REALLY dangerous!" and show them the "hurt" they could be getting. I don't think it neccesarily needs a warning in advance, and you can't do it in anger. Examples- putting things in the electric socket, playing with fire, running into the street, etc.
I am not really "for" those parents that tell their kids all the time "If you go onto the street, mommy will have to give you a patch" as a litany, repeated over and over.

I was reading a book called "The strong willed child" and he actually changed my mind about patches in certain instances. Some kids are davka-niks, and they'll do ANYTHING to get you mad, and if regular forms of punishment don't work, sometimes it'll have to be corporal punishment. And it has to be done calmly. And he suggests telling the kid while you're doing it "I love you a lot, and G-d instructed me to raise you in His way, and that sometimes means doing things that you may not always like, but I'm doing it because I love you." (it was a christian guy writing it, but it can be reworded as you like, but with the same message.)
And he says NEVER spank a kid over the age of 10. And never on the face. He suggests it on the tush, bec it hurts east there, but if I would ever do it, I'd do it on the hand.

I think, if ur gonna punish someone with a patch, you should ideally wait a bit of time till you calm down. Tell the kid who's misbehaving "You just did something REALLY wrong, and I'm VERY upset. You do not hit people when you're upset, so I'm going to wait till I calm down to give you a punishment."

I think the combo of yelling and patching is terrible- if you feel like yelling, you're in no condition to be disciplining of any kid. Go out of the room, take a few deep breaths, come back in, and then give them whatever disciplinary method you need, with a level head. But if you're able to give a patch, calmly, after nothing else has proven to work, then I think that is a thought to consider.

Btw, I'm not either into time out. However, removing a child from the situation they're in also can work. But not a "You're gonna be alone as a punishment".
Also, as happymom said, if the reason they're misbehaving is apparent, dont punish them, but give them their needs. If they're misbehaving cuz they're tired, say "Yes, you're really tired and its really hard to speak politely now, so now you're going to go to sleep so you feel better." Similar things if they're hungry. Etc...

mimivan

Thu, Apr 10 2008, 6:26 am

My husband and I went through a phase when we were pro-patching for certain offenses. We just could not deal with our son who had severe behavioral problems and everyone, including the gannenette, was at their wits' end. (we later found out he had developmental issues. The reversion to "Old fashioned potching" was not helping at all)

If I were a kid, I wouldn't respect someone who said "I'm doing this because I love you"..I would not want to create the association in a child's mind between love and violence or religion in violence...I guess potching doesn't make much sense to me anymore.

Yes, it is very important NOT to potch out of anger and to cool off. But guess what? Once we cooled off we found better solutions for dealing with the issue than potching! So what's the point in potching b'clal...?

(dangerous situations, okay, but I still don't think kids learn much from a potch even in that case)

bTW, I think yelling in many cases is worse than potching..

Another thing, my older son was doing something dangerous and I potched him on the hand. And guess what...My 18 month old (who witnessed it) went around potching everyone and everything for about 2 days! And that is not normal for him...So potching? If it works at all, it comes at too high a price, IMHO

Amital

Thu, Apr 10 2008, 6:32 am

Something that really strikes me here is that these things are happening in public.

It may not be so in every case, but the child may take the silence of other adults as approval of the abuse or their "badness" or whatever. I read this somewhere, and it really changed my view on this topic. If a child is being shouted at, and all the adults nearby avert their eyes and don't speak up, what else is the child to think but that everyone agrees with it!

Saying something, even if it only breaks the cycle in public and at that moment, can be instrumental in changing the child's perception. Not everyone thinks they are bad! And the idea of silently colluding is much worse to me.

pinkbubbles

Thu, Apr 10 2008, 6:37 am

hmm.. I just want to add something to this.

Some children get 'used to' those light slaps that some parents think are ok from time to time. After a while, they stop reacting to them and the parent will have to come up with some other disciplinary method-but in most cases ends up slapping twice instead of once, and ch'v over time using more force.

I've seen it happen myself.

happymom

Thu, Apr 10 2008, 6:55 am

Quote:

be careful about potching on the face....

I can find out where but I learned that it is against halacha to hit in the face.

mimivan

Thu, Apr 10 2008, 7:01 am

Yes, I heard that too...it would be worth it to find a source.

BTW, sorry I didn't say this sooner happymom,but kol ha kavod to you for that longish post...really a good read.

mimivan

Thu, Apr 10 2008, 7:01 am

redfireli wrote:

Yup...it's scary...

happymom

Thu, Apr 10 2008, 7:25 am

I think that anyone who really believes in potching or yelling at kids when they do something "really bad," should take parenting classes, speak to a professional and read parenting books. Im sorry but there is research that shows why these arent good at all. like I said before none of us are on the level to potch in the way the TOrah talks about. Its sad for me to hear that ppl actually believe in this approach!

Seraph

Thu, Apr 10 2008, 7:41 am

mimivan wrote:

Yes, it is very important NOT to potch out of anger and to cool off. But guess what? Once we cooled off we found better solutions for dealing with the issue than potching! So what's the point in potching b'clal...?

in which case- gr8!! even better. but if after cooling off 100% u still think a patch might help the situation, then I wouldnt be so against it.

btw this is all still in theory apparently, because I dont have a son old enough to discipline.

When the time comes, I do plan on asking our rebbe.
However, I beleive that he'd give me an answer like this:

You can't force a child to do anything. You have to make them want to do stuff. Thats shita one.
Number two- I saw specifically about the ashlagger rebbe how he relayed that his grandmother used to discipline him as follows. When he misbehaved, she would tell him how it was wrong, and how she'd have to punish him. The next day, when her anger had cooled off, she would go over with him step by step what he did, why it was wrong, and he agreed that he needed to be punished.
And then she'd give him corporal punishment.

of course, its possible that in todays day and age that might not be the best decision, which is why, when the time draws nearer, we will go to the rebbe to ask him

happymom

Thu, Apr 10 2008, 7:47 am

kids are not robots

freidasima

Thu, Apr 10 2008, 7:55 am

I was taught that if you punish, by din you have to punish immediately. there is a story somewhere in the Gemara about a father who said he would punish his son afterwards and the son got so scared that he ended up killing himself. Hence, never say "I will punish you when I calm down." Better a potch now than a hanging sentence.

Seraph

Thu, Apr 10 2008, 8:25 am

freidasima wrote:

Thats very interesting. I've never heard that.

ora_43

Thu, Apr 10 2008, 9:00 am

happymom wrote:

I respect that there are many psychologists (most of them from Western liberal countries where there is a widespread anti-corporate-punishment mentality among the general population) who say potching is "no good at all." But since I've seen it done succesfully in many families, I just can't deny my personal experience, which is that potching can be done properly even in our generation and that kids who get potched grow up fine.

Also, psychology is not an exact science, and nobody can say exactly why one child turned out a particular way. If a study shows that 300 kids who were hit were 10% more likely to commit violent crimes later in life, fine, but they can't show 100% if the kids' parents hit in anger or calmly, if this particular child didn't need that kind of punishment or wasn't able to handle it, etc.

BTW I know people--usually from middle/upper middle class american families--who were spanked lightly and resent it, but I also know plenty of people--usually from the same background one generation earlier or children of immigrants--who were mamash beaten if they did something really bad, and they think it was OK and even thank their parents for raising them right and keeping them out of trouble. I think in the end the real difference between what a child perceives as (and reacts to as) normal family behavior vs. abuse might have more to do with what society deems normal than with the behavior itself.

As for kids naturally feeling that punishment=lack of love--don't you think they need to get over that feeling at some point? Otherwise how will they read the Tanach and think anything other than "Hashem doesn't love us, Hashem is an angry G-d" (chas v'chalila)? Am Israel got punished all the time, and Torah clearly permits corporal punishment for many crimes.

ora_43

Thu, Apr 10 2008, 9:04 am

[quote="ora_43]
Also, psychology is not an exact science, and nobody can say exactly why one child turned out a particular way. If a study shows that 300 kids who were hit were 10% more likely to commit violent crimes later in life, fine, but they can't show 100% if the kids' parents hit in anger or calmly, if this particular child didn't need that kind of punishment or wasn't able to handle it, etc.
[/quote]
This part didn't come out well so I'll try again. Normal, non-abusive parents who use corporal punishment will tell you that the use of such punishment depends on their own ability to control their anger, the child's personality, the offense commited, and a bunch of other things. While there are studies that discuss the use of corporal punishment as a general rule, that doesn't necessarily make these parents wrong when they say corporal punishment is good in specific cases.

happymom

Thu, Apr 10 2008, 9:06 am

I agree that many times when it isnt done to the extreme the kids will grow up fine but that still doesnt mean its the right thing to do.

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