Is it mesiras nefesh if one is fully supported?

Reality

Sun, Nov 21 2021, 3:00 pm

This reminds me off those classes in high school and seminary about how the nisayon of being rich is harder than the nisayon of being poor.

Let me tell you something and I'm saying it under my screen name. You bet I was rolling my eyes (obviously metaphorically because I was a good well behaved student). Just what every girl from a struggling family wants to hear from their teacher dripping in diamonds. Her life was harder than mine! How shocking!

Obviously, I know what those teachers meant. But it is not appropriate for teachers dressed in designer clothes and shaitels to preach to students who have to pay for everything on their own. Adults should use a little seichel before teaching these esoteric lessons. And maybe actually care if their students can't afford to pay for things!!

amother

Sun, Nov 21 2021, 3:01 pm

amother [ Gold ] wrote:

Also can I recommend you find friends in the same financial bracket?

It makes my life much easier.

Stop comparing

And stop feeling less then because learning didn't work out for you. If you are truly struggling while both working then hashem didn't want that for you. Invest in being the biggest ovedes hashem that you can be. Push yourself to let dh go to a shiur if thats what he wants, learn mussar or machshava together, create a torah focused home.
That's your mesiras nefesh. Hashem compares you to you and her to her, try doing thatand you will be much happier

Ive seen that advice here. I have friends from different financial backgrounds.
I went to HS with this friend. I have friends more poor than me, and friends wealthier than this. kollel friend. Shes not a bad person bc she makes stupid comments
My husbands learns as much as he can and goes to night seder most nights. hes a ben torah through and through bh. this post was more of a discussion on the system in general/supporting young couples.

amother

Bone

Sun, Nov 21 2021, 3:02 pm

amother [ Tulip ] wrote:

Mesiras nefesh? Definitely not. Does anyone here even know what the translation of that is??
As far as sacrificing, show me one person who would prefer to go to work than to go learn... My husband dreams of the day he could go back to learning and leave all the stresses of work for someone else.

It might not be MN for someone who has worked and has the money to sit and learn, to actually learn. But for someone who has never worked, and sees his friends making money while he struggles with his yetzer hara to sit and learn, it is very much MN.
They say that before being a child you need to be a parent, and before learning you need to work in order to get the appreciation.

amother

Tulip

Sun, Nov 21 2021, 3:02 pm

I have a neighbor whose husband is in kollel. I definitely admire them, but I also often feel a twinge of jealousy when I see that all her kids are dressed in the latest trendy clothes and they have all the latest baby gear/toys etc., While we are struggling to pay for basics and use mostly hand me downs. (And my husband and I both work like crazy!)
If someone has the means to be in kollel, good for them! I don't think that kollel has to equal poor. Most people nowadays are not on that level.

amother

Lightyellow

Sun, Nov 21 2021, 3:05 pm

amother [ Tulip ] wrote:

You seem to be contrasting someone who is learning because he has free time and no other responsibility vs someone working at a stressful job. As opposed to someone who is seriously committed to full time all day learning.

amother

Quince

Sun, Nov 21 2021, 3:14 pm

Op, people here who are saying you don’t know her struggles, or 3 under five are hard… are clueless.
I live in a very affluent community so I know what I’m talking about.
It is not Mesiras nefesh.
3 under 5 is easy because you can get as much help as you want. I’m talking about multiple ladies at the same time and night nurses. I’ve been there myself so I can really attest to that.
People who are saying, well they’re giving up on being really rich, don’t get it at all. They are just as rich as their working siblings. Everyone is on Zaidys, or tattys payroll. Everyone has the same trust funds. They are living not one ounce differently then their working siblings.
The minute they want to go out on their own. A position will open up in the business, no worries. So they have the security of knowing they can go into real business the second they want.
If you’re not living this life, its hard to understand, but that’s really the way it is

amother

Chartreuse

Sun, Nov 21 2021, 3:20 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

I wanted to put this in interesting discussions but that forum doesnt allow for anonymous posting.

I'm 24, married 2 years with a small baby. My friend is 25, with 3 babies and married 5 years. Her husband is still in learning. She married one of the wealthiest guys from our community. She was telling me that her husband's grandfather bought them a two family house. They live in one apartment, rent free, and the other apartment they (my friend) rents out to another couple and they get to keep the rent. She works as a secretary 9-3. Her babies go to a legal daycare which she gets vouchers for so she pays 450$ a month for all 3

Our other friend was telling me how this is true mesiras nefesh for torah because her husband has the option to go and join his family business (real estate), but instead he chooses to sit and learn.

I didn't say anything because I dont really share my thoughts outloud when I know it will upset someone, but I was discussing it with my husband after. And I really dont think its mesiras nefesh at all. If someone is fully supported, has minimal expenses (groceries, phone bill), its not really living a kollel lifestyle or sacrificing for torah.

Is my thought process flawed? Am I just jealous that my husband isnt in yeshiva atm?

I wanted to discuss this, respectfully, and see what other wiser women have to say.

honestly I dont hold of the whole "mesiras nefesh" thing if you cant learn all day dont. you really think hashem wants someont to suffer in kollel instead of going out to work? SOMEONE WHO IS HAPPY WITH HIS LIFE WILL LEARN BETTER THAN SOMEONE WHO IS UNHAPPY IN KOLLEL.

amother

Gold

Sun, Nov 21 2021, 3:24 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

if you want to question the system there is lots we can discuss. The vast majority of people I know in kollel are NOT supported, and work really hard for it.

How will the next generation do it - they'll manage with siyata deshmiya the same way we are managing - hard work, simple lifestyle.

I never got a cent in help - my parents paid for my college, wedding, beds + oven+ washing machine + 1 months rent and I was so grateful for that. The rest we picked up for free at different points or paid for ourselves.

We had IF and although the majority is covered we had to figure out to pay for it ourselves.

I live in yerushalyim, work on my remote job 6-9, dh gets my kids ready and they kiss me goodbye, then another job from 9-1, run home prepare lunch +dinner, pick up the kids and take care of them alone from 2 - 6:30 when dh takes over and I go back to my remote job until 10 pm. then I clear up and get a few minutes of quality time before I collapse. DH is in the mir (900 nis stipend) has a bein hasdarim job and does tests for extra income. He also plays music at chuppah's once in a while.
BH we have everything we need, we bought an apt. with my savings from before we got married in a community in the periphery and the rent covers the mortgage, and are saving to marry off our kids imh.

It is a hard life but it is beautiful and I wouldn't trade it for anything. My children are happy, healthy, and well taken care off.

Hashem blessed us both with physical strength - I know many people would struggle doing what we do, but it is possible.

I think that if all your friends who are doing kollel are being supported then you should find a community where most of the people are like you. You are right - chances are you wont be able to be support your kids and they should grow up in a community where the financail expectations are ones that you will be able to live up to.

amother

Sun, Nov 21 2021, 3:29 pm

amother [ Quince ] wrote:

I have to say I agree with what you say but as I never started off in learning its hard for me to see how learning FT + being supported is more difficult than working FT with no support

amother

Mocha

Sun, Nov 21 2021, 3:30 pm

The question could also be asked about what constitutes "support" for example, parents paying for college tuition is a form of support imo. It enables you not to have the burden of paying back student loans, to the tune of anywhere between $15k-25 + interest.

I never resented doing it on my own, and never expected my parents to cover college. But the end result is that I didn't finish paying off the cost till I was 40. At least, give credit and appreciation where it is due if that's one less thing you had to pay for instead of saying you didn't get a penny of support.
(No I didn't go to a fancy college or get a useless degree. That's just the cost.)

amother

Gold

Sun, Nov 21 2021, 3:38 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

thanks amother gold.
I live in a mixed community.

Its hard saying "a community where most of the people are like you" as most girls my age, in my circles, are supported, or living in ramat eshkol, or lakewood or...etc. to suggest I leave is not possible. this is how it is in my world (flip out 5 towns type...) is and will continue to be

I'm not sure what you are really asking

is it how will these people's kids support there kids?
Either they will eventually go out to work and make good, have inheritances ect. and support their kids, or they wont be able to, and the kids will either do kollel they way I and most of my friends do, or they won't and will go to work.

You are struggling because all of "your world" is being supported and you aren't.
Mourn that. Cry about how you wish that was your reality, how hard it is to do it on your own. How resentful you are that you cant have what everyone else has.

Don't knock them. The majority of the people in SM and RE ARE working really hard and give up a LOT of the american comforts EVEN WHEN THE ARE SUPPORTED. And being far away from family is a HUGE sacrifice (I don't have it cause bh my parents live in Israel). And the really rich ones are sacrificing - otherwise you would see all the rich kids learning forever and that's not the reality.

And you are young. Before you put down real roots in this community (buy a house etc.) with standards beyond your means explore other options and communities out there. Otherwise you will put your kids thru the same torture your in now.

amother

Gold

Sun, Nov 21 2021, 3:44 pm

amother [ Mocha ] wrote:

I live in israel. college thru graduate school is less then 4 years + seminary of HS in the USA.

Don't get me wrong - I am incredibly grateful. It allowed me to have saving when I got married, which was my down payment together with our wedding money.

But it was before I got married so I don't consider it support - at least not in the way most people talk about support.

Chickensoupprof

Sun, Nov 21 2021, 3:46 pm

Look lots of people are not able to sit and learn for long a long time because it's expensive. I have family members and friends who are kollel people, most of them are not really rich. And most of them after 3 years are going to work.
The fact that this man is able to learn is ok but not necessary meisuras nefesh. I mean the chofetz chaims parnossa was not only the selling of his books but he had a grocery store he sat and learned there while working. I think finding time to write sefrei kodesh while working is more meisures nefesh then when you are are sitting and learn with all the parnassa in the world.

But that is not the point I guess, the point is.... Let's hope she will never have any misfortunes in her life and that she is OK, but meisures nefesh parnassa coems from hashem.

amother

Mocha

Sun, Nov 21 2021, 3:52 pm

amother [ Gold ] wrote:

It sure is a form of support. As you said, you'd have started marriage with no savings otherwise, plus it took away a monthly payment you'd probably still be making to pay back the student loans. It was just preempted. Rather than later.
But this goes along with what op is observing....if someone hasn't had to struggle in certain ways financially, it's hard for them to recognize the struggle for others or appreciate that they don't have that particular struggle. Which is true in other areas as well, not just money.

amother

Quince

Sun, Nov 21 2021, 3:52 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

People are not getting that this is found in every Kollel community like ramat eshkol and Lakewood.
There’s no escaping it. Even if most of the Kollel yungeleit are struggling, op is pointing out a question about a specific type that exists out there.
This is not a debate over where to live, or how many people are really struggling in Kollel. We believe you, your struggling, great.
Op is pointing out that there are very real people out there who are being supported by extremely wealthy parents. If you don’t know the type, you can’t really understand.
It’s out there and you can’t just move away from your Kollel because some of your friends are being supported in luxury.

amother

Gold

Sun, Nov 21 2021, 4:02 pm

amother [ Quince ] wrote:

Sure

I know people like this to. I think they are being moser nefesh in thier own way. I can't imagine being finacially dependent on someone else. And I am happy for them. What a great way to spend money - to support people learning.

As for how sustainable it is - either there is enough money for the next generation, or their isn't and the next generation will struggle or work.

What this really is about is jealousy. And it is hard not to be jealous when EVERYONE has something that you want. Its easier when most people are like you and their are a few wealthy people that everyone knows are different.