OTD in Insular Communities

Zehava

Sun, Nov 28 2021, 1:33 pm

When you give birth to a child you don’t sign contract with them that they will turn out exactly the way you want them to or else. You don’t get to disown a child for not following your rules. Period.
The ONLY situation that would warrant finding alternate, suitable accommodations for a child would be if that child was an actual danger to his family. As in actual harm. Not a “bad influence”. The worst thing you can ever show your other kids is that if they don’t conform to your terms and conditions you are out.
I don’t see why a child would even want to come back home, or want anything to do with their parents with conditions like that. How callous and stupid can you be to hold the most precious thing you have, your relationship, over their heads. A smart kid just says “you don’t want me, no problem good bye forever”. And then you have the parent sitting there crying, feeling sorry for themselves.

honeymoon

Sun, Nov 28 2021, 1:42 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Well this child did also have some angry/abusive tendencies last time he was home (along with the stealing issues). Not sure which came first, but the anger and OTD seem to feed off each other. So there is definitely more there than just OTD, which is making it a trickier situation to deal with. That's why I was shocked by their "no jeans or phone" rules, which to me don't seem nearly as significant. But like someone else pointed out, they may be symbolic of his anger and rebellion more than the issues themselves. Again, thanks everyone, I hope to be able to share some insights with them.

This child is obviously in a lot of pain. It seems a bit misguided to me to address the symptoms rather than getting the child the help they need. Religion is important, but mental and emotional health take precedence.

amother

Chambray

Sun, Nov 28 2021, 1:52 pm

amother [ Black ] wrote:

ABSOLUTELY NOT TRUE! Which is why they need to speak to specialists, not you. I have a child who is OTD and I've spoken to many specialists and rabbonim and listened to many more speeches. Not one recommended throwing out a child, except under severe instances.

Op, please have them speak to Gedalia Miller. I'm not chassidish so the specialists I speak to are also not chassidish. But I heard him speak and he's incredible.

Yes they should speak to specialists. But the child may still need to be sent out of the home to live with other people.

amother

Forsythia

Sun, Nov 28 2021, 1:55 pm

I live in a not so insular community, and my son is mechallel shabbos. He had dressed a certain way for years and I thought the only way was to accept him and love him for the way he is.

I don’t know what way is right. I do know that the old way of throwing people out never resulted in a spontaneous Baal teshuvah. But keeping your children close often did.

A child who is angry should have a therapist, and not some clueless frum guy without a degree who thinks he can be mekarev people. A child should always feel they have a home. I don’t get why a relatives home is in any way less dangerous than his own home.

When my sons school threw him out, I was furious. I think people are so quick to throw away people. Your son at 15 is not the person he will be at 40 - there’s always possibility for change.

amother

Forsythia

Sun, Nov 28 2021, 1:58 pm

amother [ Chambray ] wrote:

Yes they should speak to specialists. But the child may still need to be sent out of the home to live with other people.

I’m sorry, do you have a child like this? Don’t just toss out recommendations like cutting off a piece of your heart and soul until you’ve had to do it yourself.

amother

Chambray

Sun, Nov 28 2021, 2:01 pm

amother [ Forsythia ] wrote:

I’m sorry, do you have a child like this? Don’t just toss out recommendations like cutting off a piece of your heart and soul until you’ve had to do it yourself.

No BH, but I know people who have had to.

Esty 4

Sun, Nov 28 2021, 2:02 pm

amother [ Valerian ] wrote:

Oh my gosh. Do people still think like this????

I'm Chassidish in a Chassidish community. My best friend has a child that's OTD. She's really Chassidish, double covered, the works. She loves and accepts the child for who it is. It's not easy for her but she will never ever ever put the community over her child, ever!
And the other children are not affected, on the contrary they accept and love him too and don't make a big deal. She's dealing with professionals and is following their advice and her child is a stable good child.
I also think that the mentality is changing in the community. That's why I am shocked at the above suggestion. I think people are having awareness that keeping a child home is the way to go and they wonder when someone actually sends a child packing. It's not the acceptable thing to do any more.

Nooooo

amother

Black

Sun, Nov 28 2021, 2:06 pm

amother [ Chambray ] wrote:

No BH, but I know people who have had to.

There are very few people who HAVE to. Some people choose to. It only becomes a HAVE to when the child is a danger to others in the home.

They may have chosen to, maybe they got bad advice or just made bad choices. Or there may be more to the story that they didn't share.

amother

DarkYellow

Sun, Nov 28 2021, 2:21 pm

amother [ Chambray ] wrote:

In a situation like that the parents have no choice but to kick out the child and find other accommodations for them with another family. The other children in the home come first. But they need a rav who understands to this.

Even if the other children in the house come first (which is not the Halachic approach, since one is not allowed to sacrifice one life to save many) kicking one child out only teaches the others that your love is conditional and make them start looking for a way out.

amother

Steel

Sun, Nov 28 2021, 2:22 pm

Please get the family in touch with Avi Fishoff

https://twistedparenting.life/

He has saved literally hundreds if not thousands of kids like this by teaching the parents how to show their child who is on pain that they love him/her UNCONDITIONALLY.

amother

DarkYellow

Sun, Nov 28 2021, 2:22 pm

amother [ Steel ] wrote:

His approach definitely has merit, but why on Earth did he pick that name?

amother

Black

Sun, Nov 28 2021, 2:26 pm

amother [ Steel ] wrote:

His approach is somewhat controversial. Not the loving unconditionally part, but what he deems necessary to show unconditional love. A lot of the experts don't think parents should go to the extremes that he recommends.

amother

Steel

Sun, Nov 28 2021, 2:30 pm

amother [ Chambray ] wrote:

Sorry to be anonymous but I believe that this is the single worst piece of advice I have ever ever read on this site. Chambray please please talk about this with someone who knows what they are talking about... I know it is not personally relevant for you but I do not want you to be held accountable in the next world for destroying another human being, which is what this advice would do. If anything, big gedolim have advised that in unbelievably rare desperate desperate situations (maybe involved violence, drugs etc, not PANT STYLE or a PHONE THAT PLENTY of RABBANIM OWN THEMSELVES!!!!) that are probably in reality "lo actuali" you move out ALL THE OTHER KIDS before you throw out a kid in pain who is acting out like this.

amother

Wine

Sun, Nov 28 2021, 4:22 pm

I don't believe in sending a child away just because of influence.

But sometimes these OTD children have so much anger inside of them towards their parents and family, they do better away from home where they aren't triggered.

I would give the same advice to parents of a frum kid. Sometimes children do better in a different environment.

Each child needs to be handled individually according to their needs.

Chickensoupprof

Sun, Nov 28 2021, 4:31 pm

I’m totally from another perspective I became frum. Once a secular Israeli person asked my mom if she isn’t happy that I married a jewish man. She said “not per se, I didn’t got a jewish Man, my mom also didn’t married jewish why should I have to push my daughter to marry jewish I would be as happy if she would have married a regular Dutch guy or a guy from Gd knows where”. But I tell you it was really hard to become frum with no frum relatives or friends or any perception of frum and sometimes I read things like this and I’m like, yeah my parents had the same worries and anger as them.

You can’t choose how you children come out.
If they will stay committed to Torah and mitzvot I know lots of families who are were to strict with their children and really determined that the chareidi status quo was held. Really those children never come back. Ever. If my parents were like that I only was allowed to come in with pants and eat pork they would have driven away oh and they were really close to that…

amother

Sage

Sun, Nov 28 2021, 4:35 pm

My daughter is no longer religious and she says she is bisexual. This started when she was a teen. She’s now an adult and we have a great relationship. She still isn’t frum, but a well-rounded adult who has her own place, car, and career. Was it hard? Yes. But my children come first before any community expectations.