Are we encouraging or stunting their self development?

honeymoon

Wed, Dec 22 2021, 1:36 pm

This is something I've been thinking about a lot and I would like to get some input.

As parents and educators, we invest a lot of effort into teaching our children to know right from wrong and to develop a value system which will serve them well in society and in the framework of yiddishkeit. I've observed that in many communities, specifically the more insular ones, the way we go about instilling these values into our children is through designing their environment in such a way that they are exposed mostly to the people and behavior which we believe are the right influence to them. Which is a valid mehalech.

Except, what often happens is that these children grow up and start developing their own identity, and start seeing the world beyond what they were exposed to all their formative years. And then they need to start making their own moral and ethical decisions in a world where they aren't told what to do and where they are not surrounded only by people who think and believe like them. But they are incapable of tapping into their own personally developed value system, because they don't have one.

It's obvious that kids need the adults in their lives to impart their values to them. But how much of our chinuch is deliberate and how much is the default, which we do because of the way we designed our lives and communities? And how do we draw the distinction between sheltering our kids in an appropriate and healthy way versus stifling their own G-d given ability to differentiate between right and wrong?

I'd love to hear your thoughts.

FranticFrummie

Wed, Dec 22 2021, 1:56 pm

It's all about finding balance, and if you've never lived a balanced live, then you won't know how to give it over to your kids. There's a wide range between careless neglect and bubble wrapping your kids.

https://letgrow.org/our-mission/ This blog is full of priceless information on how to raise, healthy, wise, independent kids. Kids who can navigate the world, while holding on to doing what is right. It's an outgrowth from the Free Range Kids blog, which was started by a frum Jewish woman. Now she's in partnership with several other educators (some who are frum), expanding the concepts of how kids and parents can navigate the complexities of life.

It's either that, or we all go live with the Amish. Take your pick.

OOTforlife

Wed, Dec 22 2021, 2:02 pm

honeymoon wrote:

Except, what often happens is that these children grow up and start developing their own identity, and start seeing the world beyond what they were exposed to all their formative years. And then they need to start making their own moral and ethical decisions in a world where they aren't told what to do and where they are not surrounded only by people who think and believe like them.

In larger communities, I bet many adults don't make it to this stage for a long time, if ever. If they stay and live and work in the frum community and so does their spouse, they may remain sheltered indefinitely.

For people who do get exposure to the outside world through graduate school or their profession, by that point they are probably already married with kids and somewhat stuck having to conform, or at least find it very difficult to switch gears to making nonconforming choices. Unless they're prepared to make a full move to a less insular community.

Chickensoupprof

Wed, Dec 22 2021, 2:04 pm

Well, you see it happen when someone who is MO says on this forum that she hasn't heard X as halacha and therefore someone who is let's say on the more right-wing side is saying that it is halacha because she learned it in an insular community and never saw different thigs.

honeymoon

Wed, Dec 22 2021, 2:17 pm

OOTforlife wrote:

I agree. So how do we raise kids in a way that when they are getting married and settling down, they already know their path, and deliberately choose it, versus just continuing on the path that their parents and community set for them? That the value system they live by is their own and not just the one they got from their parents through no work of their own?

LovesHashem

Wed, Dec 22 2021, 2:30 pm

honeymoon wrote:

We allow them to ask questions. To learn. To know the difference between minhag, chumrah, and halacha.

We teach them to want to learn to want to ask to want to grow and learn things from inside and their sources. We teach them to think critically and to question if something doesn't feel right, or if they have doubts to talk to someone.

We don't shun and cut off children for choosing a different path, whether it be chabad, chasidism, chareidi, yeshivish, MO, etc.

#BestBubby

Wed, Dec 22 2021, 2:34 pm

honeymoon wrote:

There is great value if people remain frum even because that is all they were exposed to.

But to get people to "own" their Yiddishkeit, they should study it more deeply, attend shiurim.

It is debated if it is appropriate to discuss the foundations of Emunah in High Schools -
some feel it will create doubt where none existed.

Others feel, many have questions but are afraid to ask.

Rubies

Wed, Dec 22 2021, 2:40 pm

I disagree with the premise that the way we instill values is through keeping an insular community.
The concept of lack of exposure is one of the values itself.
I think your question makes for an interesting discussion but you're basing it on a premise that may be false.

Also, to clarify, how do you define insular? To what degree of insularity does the majority adhere to?

BadTichelDay

Wed, Dec 22 2021, 2:47 pm

Well, I try to talk to my children about that there are different kinds of Jews and different life styles. They can see examples when we go to different places around the country. We also talk about different countries, about different options in life, jobs and so on. They are still small. I hope they will come to see the value in our hashkafa with time and not ditch it for something else.
But I don't believe in achieving that by insularity or sheltering. I want my children to choose the right thing, not to learn it by rote and parrot it and then stand helpless when reality hits.
If seeing something new makes people run for it at the first opportunity and they drop everything they have been taught before, then the teaching or the values can't have been all that good.
If our values are so weak that they crash down at the first encounter with other values, then maybe we have to ask ourselves why we are doing what we are doing.

behappy2

Wed, Dec 22 2021, 4:22 pm

Up to a certain age I think it's important to impart very strong values. And as they grow older to give meaning to these values and broaden their minds more. I think it's also important to expose them to various types of ppl, both more machmir and less machmir. I think actually not talking about it makes them more susceptible to going the way you don't want them to. Then if they do go that way then at least you know they're educated about what they are getting into.

I don't think it's healthy to raise kids without handing over a very strong moral compass. I think it's a healthy thing for them. Makes then feel secure.

honeymoon

Wed, Dec 22 2021, 4:27 pm

Rubies wrote:

It is not the only way, but it is definitely a tool we use to help us instill our values in our children. And that is perfectly ok.

It is not only the lack of exposure. I see the merit in that. It's also the idea that doing something because everyone around them does that, doesn't give our children the opportunity to deliberately choose that and own it. So when do we tell them, "Ok, you're on your own now, own your yiddishkeit"?

Is it when they get married? I'd say it is unfair to marry off a child that is not a full on adult in their thinking and decision making.

And, my opinion of insular doesn't matter as it will mean different things to different people. It can run the gamut of very chassidish to lite MO.

honeymoon

Wed, Dec 22 2021, 4:31 pm

BadTichelDay wrote:

How do you balance upholding your values and instilling them in your children, while ensuring that they practice their yiddishkeit deliberately, consciously and not by rote? This is really the root of my question, not so much exposure or lack thereof. I'm not sure I'm coming across so clear.

behappy2

Wed, Dec 22 2021, 4:36 pm

I think kids own it all the time. As long as you let them push back.

Here's 2 examples:

5 year old. "Mommy I hate you and I'm not making a Brocha" (cuz she didn't get what she wanted) Mommy responds "ok" The next time she makes a Brocha she knows it's because she wants to. Nobody is forcing her.

Teenager experiments with different styles of clothing. Her parents don't say anything. She gets to see that it's she who decides what she is going to wear or not.

These are ways kids get to own their yiddishkeit.

honeymoon

Wed, Dec 22 2021, 4:37 pm

behappy2 wrote:

I don't think it's healthy to raise kids without handing over a very strong moral compass. I think it's a healthy thing for them. Makes then feel secure.

Of course. But when they grow up and need to utilize this moral compass in real life, is it their own compass or that of their parents and community?

Are they making decisions based on what was spoon fed to them, or can they rely on their own sense of judgement to choose what's right for them, personally, at that given moment in their life?

How do we help them develop the latter?

jkl

Wed, Dec 22 2021, 4:42 pm

honeymoon wrote:

Was just coming on here to say something similar. You don't want to just hand over a moral compass. You want them to DEVELOP a moral compass so they can make choices on their own with things that haven't been defined for them.

honeymoon

Wed, Dec 22 2021, 4:43 pm

behappy2 wrote:

I like this. That is, if the child really believes that it won't matter to the parent whether they do it or not. If they sense disappointment or anger, their future decisions may be motivated by that and not on their own belief that this is the right thing to do.

honeymoon

Wed, Dec 22 2021, 4:44 pm

jkl wrote:

YES.

Thank you for clarifying better than I could. This is exactly my point.

behappy2

Wed, Dec 22 2021, 5:23 pm

honeymoon wrote:

I once heard an OTD person proudly say that when her daughter came home in 1st or 2nd grade and told her that her teacher told her that Hashem created the world in 6 days, this woman responded to her daughter by asking "what do YOU believe?"

This is wrong. A child needs a base. Do you really want a child to have to figure everything out all by themselves? Even today as a parent I still call my mother and ask her for advice. I reach out to ppl wiser and older. This is the gift Hashem gave us that we have older generations so we don't need to figure it ALL out ourselves.

So yes. A child born to a frum family will have a very different compass than a child born to parents to parents who believe that the way to attain no eternal life is to kill Jews. So yes, as much as we think we have chosen our way of life for most of us it has chosen us.

That said we don't want to stuff it down their throats. We want to educate. We want to encourage critical thinking. We want to expose them to different ppl and ways of thinking. And mostly always love them and guide them.