Clothing store owners: Why?

taketwo

Wed, Jan 19 2022, 12:34 pm

amother [ DarkGreen ] wrote:

Anon because this is specific to me.

I manage a mikvah. We were told to remove the full length mirrors from the prep rooms (and only have ones to check your face) because many women felt it was not tzanuah to have to be that close to a full length mirror and see themselves naked with no where else to look. Which is all sorts of messed up but whatever.

So I imagine the same goes for some frum clothing stores. Women do not want to be in a small area with no where else to look but at a mirror where they will see themselves undressed. Truth is, I am overweight and I get kind of down when I see myself undressed and it does not put me in the best mindset to spend on myself, it more makes me think "you are a fat pig, you should lose weight and not buy things now". So I can see a thought that it's better for spenders to see themselves only looking fab in the new clothes and not undressed, so they put a mirror right outside the dressing room.

Not saying I agree, but it's what I bet the thought is.

It's never okay to speak about yourself like that. Whoever put those words in your head should not have done so. You are a beautiful human being no matter your size.

Ema of 5

Wed, Jan 19 2022, 12:45 pm

amother [ Oatmeal ] wrote:

Of course you don't need a mirror. For most of history, mirrors didn't exist. And then they were insanely expensive.

Generations of Jewish women combed out their long hair as best they could, looked over their bodies and toveled.

Mirrors existed in mitzrayim…..and probably before that as well

amother

DarkGreen

Wed, Jan 19 2022, 12:58 pm

taketwo wrote:

It's never okay to speak about yourself like that. Whoever put those words in your head should not have done so. You are a beautiful human being no matter your size.

Thank you so much for this. BH my husband tells me the same, so I can shut out the voices when I try on things most of the time Smile

amother

Oak

Wed, Jan 19 2022, 1:02 pm

Never understood women whose husbands stand outside the changing rooms because the wife wants her husband's approval. Do you really think I want to come outside the dressing room to look in the mirror when your husband is there? And I'm talking about very "frum" communities. Can someone please explain why this standard of tzniyus is somehow acceptable?

amother

Oldlace

Wed, Jan 19 2022, 1:06 pm

amother [ DarkGreen ] wrote:

We do not freak out. Some women are very anxious because of how they were taught, and made worse by how women talk to each other about it. There are very few things which are a true chatzitza, and a stray hair is not one of them (unless you are chassidish and hold any hair is chatzitza I guess).

Women want different things from their mikvah ladies. Read this board to find see this. Many want us to just come in and say kosher if it's kosher. But if we get the change to educate a women who wants to learn, we take the chance. I've calmed down many women. I've had many women come back to the mikvah at late hours because they saw something, I tell them my thought (because obviously I can not tell them what to do), have them call their rav and sure enough I am right; just about never does a women have to re-immerse. As for a "piece of dirt" being a chatzitza - define a piece of dirt. It's a huge category really. Paint on the skin = chatzitza. Ink in the skin (like sharpy) = try your best to remove it, please do not use bleach (another thing the older generation love and we stock it for them), and dip with it once it is not coming off with a good scrubbing.

No one should freak out about anything.

I was taught anything is a chatzitah that's not attached to your body. I'm yeshivish. Every book I've need on niddah says this.

What were you taught halachically constitutes a chatzitah?

amother

DarkGreen

Wed, Jan 19 2022, 1:11 pm

amother [ Oldlace ] wrote:

I was taught anything is a chatzitah that's not attached to your body. I'm yeshivish. Every book I've need on niddah says this.

What were you taught halachically constitutes a chatzitah?

I am also a kallah teacher and was taught by rebbitzen Tehilla Abramov, for what it's worth. By her own statement, her book is stricter than what her kallah teachers teach.

First, define "attached to your body".

What are the true chatzitza issues which are a shailah? Lice, nits, dandruff to an extent (ask your rav how to remove and dip with what is left). Paint on the skin should be asked about. Stitches (dissolving and not), a medical cast. Wet blood. Dry blood. Blood and scabs should not be removed after soaking until you show the mikvah lady, most times they can stay after they are softened.

amother

Ivory

Wed, Jan 19 2022, 1:14 pm

Many dressing rooms don't have space for a mirror, in that there isn't enough room to step back and actually see. Everywhere I've been that doesn't have has a hallway in the dressing room area for you to be in. So only women can be in there.

paperflowers

Wed, Jan 19 2022, 1:14 pm

Ema of 4 wrote:

Mirrors existed in mitzrayim…..and probably before that as well

Not specifically relevant to the conversation, but some interesting history: The big, flat glass mirrors we have now are fairly recent technology. Before that people used very polished pieces of metal, like the copper mirrors in mitzrayim. Mirrors were small, so they would make them curved, which allows you to see more, but distorts the image. We are used to seeing ourselves everywhere. In the olden days even glass windows were very small and less reflective.

amother

Vermilion

Wed, Jan 19 2022, 1:16 pm

amother [ DarkGreen ] wrote:

This is really, really shocking. A woman is REQUIRED BY HALACHA to fully, visually check her body. That's literally part of the mitzvah, just like counting seven days is. A mirror is necessary. It's really shocking that the rav of the mikvah allowed this.

paperflowers

Wed, Jan 19 2022, 1:20 pm

Bnei Berak 10 wrote:

I'm the opposite. I will comply with everything and have no problem with that.
Once I was even asked if an additional mikva lady could join (she was in training, had completed the course). I said sure no problem LOL

Mikva ladies have seen all types of bodies and sizes

It’s not about comfort level or compliance. There’s no reason why a mikvah lady should need to check your front, and no reason to create a situation that makes it harder for women to do it for themselves.

amother

Gray

Wed, Jan 19 2022, 1:20 pm

amother [ Oatmeal ] wrote:

No, but the mikvah lady can. And if you wear a robe when brushing your hair, it's not getting on your body anyhow.

So it’s better for mikvah lady to check your back then a women to check her own back?
This is warped.
Our mikvah acutually stopped having the mikvah lady check our backs and everyone is much happier. We use mirrors.
Aren’t there other mirrors? Like the mirror over the sink. I can really see my whole body in there as well.
Removing the full length mirrors is so strange.

Ema of 5

Wed, Jan 19 2022, 1:21 pm

paperflowers wrote:

That’s true, but mirrors still did exist. Reflective mirrors, whatever the shape or size, were used in mitzrayim. Modern day mirrors may be new, but mirrors have been around for a few thousand years….

amother

Denim

Wed, Jan 19 2022, 1:21 pm

If we are posting about mikva mirrors here, they should really design the room that the mirror is not opposite of bath.

I BH don't hate my body, but don't love every bump and stretch mark either.

But please, do leave large mirrors in the room for checking!

amother

Saddlebrown

Wed, Jan 19 2022, 1:22 pm

amother [ DarkGreen ] wrote:

Does Eliza Doolittle use this mikvah? LOL

amother

Navy

Wed, Jan 19 2022, 1:24 pm

amother [ Denim ] wrote:

At the Mikvah I go to, there is a mirror that is the length of the counter, and then a full length one on the door to the room. (Not the door to the actual Mikvah, that’s where they hang the robe.)
In all the Mikvah’s I’ve been to, the toilet and shower/bath are next to each other, and the sink and counter are opposite that, with a mirror on top. Are you saying that mirror shouldn’t be there?

paperflowers

Wed, Jan 19 2022, 1:24 pm

Ema of 4 wrote:

That is true, and the previous posters point about historically getting ready for mikvah without mirrors is probably also also true.

amother

Vermilion

Wed, Jan 19 2022, 1:24 pm

Bnei Berak 10 wrote:

Mikva ladies have seen all types of bodies and sizes

It's not about compliance.

I'm not shy, gyn visits don't bother me, bedikas to a rav don't bother me, if I wanted to go, a bodekes wouldn't bother me.

This is about giving up YOUR mitzvah, and changing mesorah. A woman has obligations. She's supposed to make a herself tahara, count seven days with bedikas, and then cleanse and check her body, then she's supposed to fully dip in a mikva. The checking is literally an explicit part of the mitzva entrusted to me. I'm given full ne'emanus by halacha in this (as in, no one, including my husband for whom this is chiyuvai kares, is allowed to question me when I say I've been toivel k'halacha). Why would I hand that authority to someone else??

(Mil is a ml. She rants about the young generation not wanting to be checked because they have no yiras shamayim. I used to buy that until I looked into it. No man has his tefillin placement checked daily by the rav, none of us as a rav to count six hours for us after we eat meat, none of us check the bracha of a sandwich with a rav each time we eat...halacha and Torah was given to us.)