playgroups...necessary or not?

happymom

Tue, May 06 2008, 10:42 pm

Quote:

I do get weird looks and comments when I start asking a million questions, gold21. People make me feel like I'm overbearing and overprotective when I ask a simple question like, "Did they play outside today?" They think I should just let the days go by and whatever happens happens.

You don't know how many times I've been told by a director or principal: "You're the first person to notice xyz happening. No one's ever mentioned that before. You're more involved than most parents we deal with."

omg me too! they think im waaaaay to worried when really I am just caring about my daughter. like I ask if they give drinks at the park, how my daughter was that day.... and other things that are so normal to ask and it seems im the only one that does this. I dont know it shouldnt be that way. it should be the norm!

ArthurDent

Tue, May 06 2008, 11:29 pm

Thank you so much for posting this thread. I'm at home with my almost, but not yet, 2 year old. Just yesterday, my MIL was asking if I was going to send my dd to daycare next year to socialize her.

Everyone around me seems to ask me about putting dd in daycare or playgroup or some other organized thing, but I keep saying that the last thing she seems interested in is other kids. (We go to storytime at the library, friends' homes, etc.) And they insist that it's not that she's shy (like me and my entire family), it's that she's at home with me.

I can't say that it doesn't hit a vulnerable nerve in me and make me second guess what I'm doing. But the vast majority of daycares in this country is just awful. I can't believe that people insist that it's a better alternative than her staying at home with me. It didn't even seem to phase MIL that dd already knows 10 colors, her ABCs, her aleph beis, shapes, 1-10 in english and cantonese. (Sorry, a little venting there.)

It just seems like all the criticism second guess everything you are as a parent.

gold21

Wed, May 07 2008, 10:04 am

Quote:

It didn't even seem to phase MIL that dd already knows 10 colors, her ABCs, her aleph beis, shapes, 1-10 in english and cantonese.

Wow!!! My son will be 2 in a couple of weeks IYH and it hasnt even occurred to me to start teaching him this type of stuff. Basically ive been teaching him still basics like "Oh look at those birds, they are eating bread. Birds eat bread. Birds say Tweet Tweet. What do birds eat? What do birds say?" or "Mommy is peeling carrots for soup. What does Mommy put in soup?" Like that kind of stuff. So you sound like you are way ahead of yourself, kudos to you, your kid certainly doesnt need playgroup!

Now I'm wondering if im supposed to be teaching him that stuff already? I thought it was too young?

ArthurDent

Wed, May 07 2008, 10:14 am

gold21 wrote:

Quote:

It didn't even seem to phase MIL that dd already knows 10 colors, her ABCs, her aleph beis, shapes, 1-10 in english and cantonese.

I don't really think of myself as "teaching" her those things. I do all the sorts of things that you do and read to her. Eventually, she just started singing some of the ABCs from one of her books, so I encouraged her to fill in the gaps. Everything else came eventually, one at a time, one letter/number at a time. It's mostly been me pointing out the shapes/colors or letters/numbers on her toys while we played together. Nothing formal. (Of course, the cantonese thing was on purpose. My mother was asking, "Why are you teaching her hebrew and not chinese?" So my parents are happy now.)

gryp

Wed, May 07 2008, 10:24 am

gold, each child is different. My older one also knew tons of information at age 2 because BH he has an incredible memory. But the truth is that he didn't understand very much. My 2.5 yr old now home with me also knows the Alef-Beis and colors but not much else because it's just not his strong point. He doesn't think anything has to have any specific order so he's only now learned to count to ten. But he can understand a lot of things for a 2 yr old and communicate beautifully.

My point is, that you find your child's strong point and teach him through that. There's no point to comparing because kids are just so different at that age.

ArthurDent

Wed, May 07 2008, 12:39 pm

GR wrote:

gold, each child is different. My older one also knew tons of information at age 2 because BH he has an incredible memory. But the truth is that he didn't understand very much.

Thanks for posting this b/c I've been hitting the same wall with dd. Also wondering what the heck she understands despite having encyclopedic knowledge of random things. When I try to have meaningful dialogue with her (are you hungry? would you like to have a raisin?), it feels like I'm talking to myself sometimes. When did your ds start showing that he understood?

Tamiri

Wed, May 07 2008, 1:11 pm

When I was 2 I knew all the names of the birdies and dogs in World Book encyclopedia. My father sold them, and I was an attraction. Knowing all that did not ultimately help me go farthur in life. Information retention is nice, but being loved, nurtured and cared for is even nicer (I was).

I realize that working mothers have to have someone care for their offspring. But what is wrong with hiring and retaining a nanny for the first 3 years? That is what working mothers used to do, until this business of day care and playgroup (which, ironically, were initially set up for AT RISK children) caught on - because it's cheaper than hiring a nanny. Mothers started to be convinced that their child NEEDED to be out socializing at a very early age - where that was meant for the at risk children, not those growing up in normal nurturing environments. And once the herd affect settled in (what, YOUR kid is not socializing in a play group? He'll be so behind), almost every mother felt compelled to send her child to "something" so that he/she would not be behind.

It's all a myth. Human babies, with their growing minds and emotional needs do best when being nurtured by one caretaker during their most formative years. They don't need Morahs, gaggles of children or stimulating songs, games and workbooks to get them ahead. For them to get ahead and ultimately be productive humans (which is what we want for our kids) they need a firm, solid basis in learning to be humans. And it's very hard to provide that in most juvenile group settings. They learn how to get along in a group before they have learned other important things in life.

And if anyone kids themselves that the children are crying only during pick-up and drop-off, they need to answer the question: if a tree falls in a forest and no one is around, will it still make a sound. If it's all so good, why are the children crying for their mommies at all? And I HAVE had children in 2 yo programs.... 2 days a week for 2 hours. Never ever dealt with Mommy-crying. I would not leave my child in a place where he felt so insecure, he needed to cry for me.

Please, educate yourselves before allowing the current trend to guide you. Hashem gave all animals mommies. We are the only species who let go of our young before "it's time". Think about getting a nanny either 1 on 1 or 1 on 2 (get a neighbor in to split the cost) and do yourselves (less illness, pinworms, lice) and your child (warm, love, nurturing) a favor.

gold21

Wed, May 07 2008, 1:25 pm

GR wrote:

Quote:

gold, each child is different. My older one also knew tons of information at age 2 because BH he has an incredible memory. But the truth is that he didn't understand very much.

Thanks for posting this b/c I've been hitting the same wall with dd. Also wondering what the heck she understands despite having encyclopedic knowledge of random things. When I try to have meaningful dialogue with her (are you hungry? would you like to have a raisin?), it feels like I'm talking to myself sometimes. When did your ds start showing that he understood?

Interesting!!
My son is sooo responsive to these types of things. I say "Would you like some pasta now or would you like to take your truck outside to play?" And he'll say "pasta!" and run to his high chair and ask for a spoon and for ketchup.
So we have lots of just normal human conversations.
Like "How was your day? What did you do? Did you play with your toys?"
And he'll say "Car!" Cuz he played with a car.
So we converse a lot.
And yet he does not know the ABCs or Aleph Bet or shapes or colors cuz I have been much more focused on teaching him basics than academics. It never occurred to me to teach him those things.

So its true that every child is so different!! Tongue Out

Funny.

Last edited by gold21 on Wed, May 07 2008, 1:28 pm; edited 1 time in total

shayna82

Wed, May 07 2008, 1:32 pm

gold21 wrote:

When we were toddlers, most of us stayed home til we were at least 3, maybe 4, before going out to playgroups and such.
I know I wasnt sent out to any playgroups at all and went to kindergarten after being home and bonding with mommy a few years.
So why is everyone so obsessed with 2 year old groups these days? Have kids changed? Have parents changed? Has society changed? I am wondering what caused this transition. Now every single solitary person I know of (except for you, twizzlers) is sending their 2 year old out to a structured playgroup.
Do 2 year olds really need this?
I am wondering what others think of this new fad.

So far the 2 year old groups that I have looked into have UNIMPRESSED me. Tons of kids, not enough staff members, not very nurturing at all. And the moms I have spoken to dont seem concerned about this. "yeah its all good, im sure its fine, he/ she seems happy there" Ok. Not my type of attitude. Um hello, why havent you checked the place out personally, why dont you know what is going on in your 2 year old's playgoup? You dont just assume that things are ok. Its not "all good". This is a new kind of parenting attitude and I think its wrong.

Anyway back to 2 year old groups....what do you guys think?

I keep my kids home until they are 3. that is the age that I think they are more ready to go and be with other kids and learn about the world in a different way, not just at home with mommy.

Personally I think a two year old is too young to be away from home. but to each their own. not everyone can handle having the kids home, people need to work... but I had the choice, so thats what I decided to do.

gryp

Wed, May 07 2008, 7:05 pm

ArthurDent wrote:

GR wrote:

gold, each child is different. My older one also knew tons of information at age 2 because BH he has an incredible memory. But the truth is that he didn't understand very much.

My son was also speech delayed which of course had to do with how much he comprehended, I always said that when he starts really talking I'll be able to see just how much information he retained when I taught him. He started understanding more once he started talking more, which was when he started school. Slowly but surely he started understanding more and more, I saw improvements literally week to week when I asked him his Parsha questions and slowly but surely he was able to tell me more and more about the Parsha.
I'm pretty sure it's common in an oldest child, since the parents mostly always know what he/she wants and the child doesn't feel the need to communicate much.
By now, coming to the end of his second year in school, his comprehension and understanding surpasses his peers, probably because he knows much more general and basic info than other kids his age.

My second one is so different that of course I don't expect the same kinds of things. I teach him according to his memorizing capabilites but I can teach him much more about things because he understands more about things.

Quote:

My son is sooo responsive to these types of things. I say "Would you like some pasta now or would you like to take your truck outside to play?" And he'll say "pasta!" and run to his high chair and ask for a spoon and for ketchup.
So we have lots of just normal human conversations.
Like "How was your day? What did you do? Did you play with your toys?"
And he'll say "Car!" Cuz he played with a car.
So we converse a lot.
And yet he does not know the ABCs or Aleph Bet or shapes or colors cuz I have been much more focused on teaching him basics than academics. It never occurred to me to teach him those things.

That's how my second one is, we just have lots of conversation. But you can also teach so much that way because you have the benefit of him comprehending. For example, when I tell my kids a story, I can say it in a way that both the older one and younger one will understand. But when I sing a song of Mishnayos by heart or something like that, my younger one will be completely lost past the first three words. So for my younger one I can give over information in a story format and it holds his interest and he is actually learning, not random spit-back dry facts, but concepts.

realeez

Wed, May 07 2008, 8:10 pm

louche wrote:

Tamiri wrote:

what is wrong with hiring and retaining a nanny for the first 3 years?

Nothing, except that it's usually more expensive if you have just 1 child or need extended hours.

And I don't know about where you live but here they are people who are sponsored and work as nannies until they can become a citizen. Honestly, I see a lot of children with nannies who are not properly supervised (and that's in public). Also, I would not want a non-Jew watching my child all day. Probably started when I saw these neighbourhood nannies taking their Jewish but not-frum charges to MacDonald's on Pesach. I always wondered what the parents would have said since at least on Pesach, many have different standards. And then there was the frum child being pushed in the stroller while the nanny was yapping away on her cell phone on Rosh Hashana. Not something I want around my children.

gold21

Wed, May 07 2008, 9:29 pm

Yes but mommyabc, why is the fact that the nanny is frum more important than the fact that she cares for the child and gives him warmth and attention?
I don't see why that is the absolute priority. Your outlook is the reason why many of these horrid playgroups I have seen are thriving. Its the "as long as she's frum its all good" attitude. "Oh she's a heimishe lady, so what if her group has 20 kids in a small play area with only 2 staff members?" Come on, your child does not need need need frum people surrounding her 24/7, rather your child needs needs needs loving and accepting people surrounding her 24/7.
Chinuch al pi halacha doesn't begin til age 3, but love is neccessary from the start.
Yeah my sons babysitter is one- on- one and frum too B"H.. But if I had the option of either an ultra frum rebbetzin married to the rosh kollel of new square who has 12 kids under her care and chats on the phone half the day and ignores the kids as long as they're not crying or hungry, or a non frum woman who will love my child and give him attention and care for him almost like a mom, why the heck would I choose the rebbetzin? You see what I'm saying?
Its not all about how heimishe a woman is. Its about how she cares for your child.
Childcare other than mommy is generally second best, but some of the sickening stomach-turning heimishe babysitting groups in my neighborhood which I have seen with my own eyes, which take place in badly lit rooms with a bunch of kids meandering around doing nothing plus like 5 babies that are strapped into their carseats most of the day, are way worse than second best.

realeez

Thu, May 08 2008, 4:39 pm

gold21 wrote:

Frum does not equal good necessarily in my books, but I will not choose a non-Jew to watch my children. I think you missed my post about NOT sending to playgroup What

Sorry, most of the non-jewiish nannies I see don't love their charges - or they wouldn't have them running ahead into the street or out in the sub-zero winter temps without a hat or be shmoozing with their friends while the kids run in the park bothering other children.