Why a Rebbe? Why not directly to Hashem?

shalhevet

Sun, May 11 2008, 3:14 am

GR wrote:

Hey, I just say things the way they are. If it was the story of Yaakov lifting the rock off the well or Shimshon collapsing the pillars of the stadium under the Pelishtim, and someone would say "Oh, no, they didn't do that, Hashem did," it would be equally ridiculous. Of course Hashem did it. Sometimes Hashem chooses messengers/agents/ a person to do things through and sometimes not. To make it sound like the person isn't involved at all when it's his own Guf the action is being done through is confusing and incorrect.

The tape gave me bad vibes about denying the role of leaders Hashem put in place in each generation. I don't want to be playing an educational tape for my kids which espouses nonsense, in my opinion. Especially when it's on a topic I feel is critical in Yiddishkeit.

I noticed my siddur says:

Quote:

ממצרים גאלתנו ד' א-לקינו, ומבית עבדים פדיתנו. כל בכוריהם הרגת ובכורך גאלת, וים סוף בקעת, וזדים טבעת וידידים העברת, ויכסו מים צריהם, אחד מהם לא נותר. .. צור ישראל, קומה בעזרת ישראל, ופדה כנאמיך יהודה וישראל...

Quote:

You redeemed us from Egypt, Hashem, our G-d, and redeemed us from the house of bondage. You killed all their firstborn, and Your firstborn you saved, and You split the Red Sea, and You drowned the wicked, and You passed the beloved ones through the sea, and the water covered their enemies, not one remained...
Rock of Yisrael, rise to help Yisrael, and redeem as your words, Yehudah and Yisroel...

Did you toss your siddur too? Or does your siddur say something else?

TzenaRena

Sun, May 11 2008, 3:29 am

shalhevet wrote:

GR wrote:

I thought I would bring up what the tape said and get different opinions about it. It seems ridiculous to me that it says: "Moshe didn't do the miracles in Egypt," when he was the one Hashem appointed to do the miracles.

Moshe was Hashem's agent for carrying out some of the miracles. (There were some where Aharon was the agent, and of course makas bechoros where it was Hashem Himself without any agent as we say in the haggadda.)

Of course Hashem did the miracles and chalila v'chas to say anything different. There are numerous pesukim that say so (as if we need proof).

TR, the pasuk you mentioned is because that pasuk is needed in context. And I learned the same reason why Moshe is otherwise not mentioned - that no one should make such a mistake chalila as to think Moshe did the miracles himself.

The context is quite the opposite. ( Could you post the source of your explanation?) The context is what the Mechilta( the source of this part of the Haggada Rabbi Yose HaGlili omer: minayin... shekol makah etc., up to and including Vayaaminu ba'shem uv'moshe avodo ) says on this verse : That he who believes in Moshe is as though he believes in Hashem, and the reverse as well, if one speaks against the Roeh Yisroel it is as though he speaks against Hashem.

That is, the belief in the Roeh Yisroel is equivalent, and equated with the belief in Hashem both in the positive and the negative..

Additionally, at Matan Torah it says "V'gam bcho yaaminu l'oilam" referring to Moshe.

Last edited by TzenaRena on Sun, May 11 2008, 8:56 am; edited 1 time in total

TzenaRena

Sun, May 11 2008, 4:12 am

shalhevet wrote:

Motek wrote:

shalhevet wrote:

Hashem is AVINU malkeinu - our father - we DO NOT NEED ANY INTERMEDIARIES. PICK UP YOUR SIDDUR, OR DON'T EVEN USE A SIDDUR AND TALK DIRECTLY TO HASHEM.

How do you understand "and they believed in Hashem and in Moshe His servant"

As the Ibn Ezra explains there. Why, how do you understand it?

The Ibn Ezra says that they believed that Moshe is His servant and would only do what Hashem commands.

Unkelos says " and they believed in the word of Hashem and in the Nevuah of His servant Moshe". In either case, Moshe is Hashem's shliach, and His Novi. What are you implying?[/quote]

shalhevet

Sun, May 11 2008, 4:18 am

TzenaRena wrote:

shalhevet wrote:

Motek wrote:

shalhevet wrote:

Hashem is AVINU malkeinu - our father - we DO NOT NEED ANY INTERMEDIARIES. PICK UP YOUR SIDDUR, OR DON'T EVEN USE A SIDDUR AND TALK DIRECTLY TO HASHEM.

How do you understand "and they believed in Hashem and in Moshe His servant"

As the Ibn Ezra explains there. Why, how do you understand it?

[/quote]

I'm not implying anything. I actually don't see how it can be understood in any other way, and I don't understand what this has to do with a discussion on throwing out tapes that say Hashem did the miracles in Egypt. Which is why I didn't understand Motek's question. Maybe you should ask her what she is implying.

BTW, I don't have a source about why Moshe isn't mentioned in the hagadda. But I have heard this reason on several occasions.

gryp

Sun, May 11 2008, 8:41 am

shalhevet wrote:

GR wrote:

I noticed my siddur says:

Quote:

Did you toss your siddur too? Or does your siddur say something else?

As I wrote in my last post directed towards yours, I don't expect you to understand a simple post when you've been brainwashed otherwise. It really doesn't matter what I write because you stubbornly persist on reading what you want.

One day, I'm sure this won't be an issue anymore. Looking forward to better days.

Btw, for Lubavitchers who haven't had the chance to learn about this, there's a sicha from the Rebbe on Parshas Ki Sisa about this entire topic, about a memutzah hamechaber, and the Cheit Ha'Egel, and why Bnei Yisroel mistakenly thought the Egel could be a memutzah hamechaber.

gryp

Sun, May 11 2008, 9:02 am

Quote:

I really fail to see the connection. Why is it a contradiction for a person to daven for themselves and ask other people to daven for them too? It says in the gemorra (I think, maybe the SA) that a sick person's prayers are answered, and it also says that someone with a sick person in their house should go to a talmid chochom to daven for them. Of course the more a person has worked on themselves and learns Torah and/or is a tzaddik, the closer his connection with Hashem. There is also a concept that someone who is careful about his speech has a greater power in his words/ tefillos than someone else.

When Shalhevet says these words, it's Halacha.
When GR says these words: "Yikes, run for cover, apikorsus at its worst!"

I need an emoticon for sad and extremely funny at the same time.

gryp

Sun, May 11 2008, 9:16 am

Quote:

The difference is that we believe that the more a person has worked on themselves, the more they learn Torah, the more mitzvos they have done, the more they are careful of their speech etc - the greater their power of tefilla. We do not say that a person was already born with a neshomo that makes him a better "intermediary" than anyone else. Litvish and Sephardi gedolim can emerge from anywhere (as was once the case in Chassidism too). We have gedolim from a long line of gedolim and we have gedolim who are children of "ordinary" Yidden. There are numerous maamarei chazal that Torah is available for anyone who wants to take it.

What are you talking about? Why are you making up about Chassidim that one can only be a Tzaddik if born with a Neshama from a high level? An absolutely false statement.

Quote:

It is also a clear issur to daven to anyone other than Hashem. When we daven at kivrei tzaddikim we daven that in the zechus (merit) of the tzaddik our tefillos to Hashem should be answered.

When Shalhevet says this, it's halacha.
When GR says this, it's kfira again!

Quote:

BTW, maybe in EY the miracle stories are different, but all seemed to be saying how giving tzedoka brought about the yeshua. Many of the stories I read were of people in trouble who davenned to Hashem that they would give x amount of money, or gave a sum to the particular tzeddaka, and the yeshua arrived.

And when one asks for a Bracha from the Rebbe, one takes upon himself an extra mitzvah, chumrah, or hiddur in order to merit the blessings and be able to receive them.
When it's done in the Litvish world, it's "normal."
When it's done by us, it's the basis for all kinds of wild accusations.

Quote:

I actually don't see how it can be understood in any other way, and I don't understand what this has to do with a discussion on throwing out tapes that say Hashem did the miracles in Egypt.

Where are you getting this from? Can you show me one little hint to anything I said about Hashem not doing the miracles?
You read what you want to read. You think what you think is right to think, accurate or not.

I threw out the tape because it said: MOSHE DIDN'T DO THE MIRACLES.

Would you ask a Tzaddik to daven for you and receive a Yeshua and then deny he davened for you? Would you borrow something from your neighbor and then deny she ever gave it to you, because Hashem really did it?

Mimisinger

Sun, May 11 2008, 9:26 am

I think the problem here is that GR threw out a tape b/c she said that it discounted Moshe's part. I think the way Shalhevet sees it, is that of course Moshe was there, everyone knows that! But, it's hashem's doing. I think everyone agrees on that and all of this turned into a huge balagan.

On the other side Motek (sorry, I have issues quoting - I don't know how to quote more than one thing at a time) You turned this into a Litvish vs. Lubavitch disc. I think your post should be deleted. Before the posts were veiled, though thinly. To dafka target the Litvish rebbeim, is wrong. Sorry, but I think that the rules should be equal. If anyone had said that about the Lubavitcher rebbe it would be deleted. The same should hold true for the Litvish rebbeim.

Mimisinger

Sun, May 11 2008, 9:46 am

amother wrote:

Miriam770 wrote:

To the people that ask what is M"M Shlita... I'm talking about the Rebbe Melech Ha Mashiach Shlita... I'm not planning to promote anything regards about what I just wrote... I don't eaven expect from you ladies to understand what it means... just I wont you to know that Mashiach is here and we need to open our eyes to see it.

this is not a conversation for outside of the lubavitch forum. as far as the greater frum world is concerned- moshiach is NOT here. you are new here, so maybe you don't realize that this entire forum is not lubavitch. this is not what everyone believes & not everyone appreciates you promoting it.

Wow I totally missed that post. Um, yeah only you believe that and unless you want to cause WWIII, imamother style, you should keep those kinds of posts private.

shalhevet

Sun, May 11 2008, 9:54 am

GR wrote:

shalhevet wrote:

GR wrote:

I noticed my siddur says:

Quote:

Did you toss your siddur too? Or does your siddur say something else?

I think we've been through this before. When posters have asked questions about Chabad that no one can answer, the reply is that non-Lubavitchers cannot possibly understand.

If we ask again the thread disappears.

Perhaps you should tell me where I've been brainwashed? Maybe by being taught chumash, navi and hashkafa in dark rooms, sleep deprived (hmm... plenty of nights like that since becoming an ima...), no food allowed (come to think of it, every so often I don't eat or drink for 25 hours straight)...

This is a pretty pathetic comment from such an intelligent poster (and I'm not being sarcastic). It actually reminds me of what not-yet-frum people like to say about people who have become frum - must have been brainwashed.

And if you want to say I've been brainwashed about Lubavitch, all I can say, is that the things I have heard are absolutely nothing compared to what Lub posters have written on threads such as this one. I had absolutely no idea that someone Lub would have a problem with a tape that said Hashem performed the miracles in Egypt - until you told me so.

chaylizi

Sun, May 11 2008, 10:04 am

grin wrote:

Mimisinger wrote:

I think that the rules should be equal. If anyone had said that about the Lubavitcher rebbe it would be deleted. The same should hold true for the Litvish rebbeim.

Are the Litvish saying their rabanim are the Moshiach of the generation?
If so, all the power to them!
(They may still have a problem as those rabbis may not be from zera David, as the chassidishe rebbes are.)
Do they believe that he's going to redeem us all at any moment?
Then we're all in agreement!

are you absolutely 1000% sure that the litvishe rabbanim are not zera dovid? the litvishe do not believe their gedolim are moshiach- that does not make them not gedolei yisroel. I am chasidish & I find it in my heart to respect gedolim- even if don't personally follow their psak. there is no excuse at all to say something derogatory about a godol b'yisroel- EVEN if you don't follow them. Everyone agrees that moshiach can come at any moment to redeem us. Most of us also believe that moshiach is not yet here & we are waiting for the moment he shows up. This world is turning into a scary, sad place where disgusting & horrific things happen daily. I do not believe that in such a world that moshiach can possibly be here.The last time I checked all our factions still belong to the same religion. I agree with cassandra- this thread should be closed.

gryp

Sun, May 11 2008, 10:30 am

Quote:

I think we've been through this before. When posters have asked questions about Chabad that no one can answer, the reply is that non-Lubavitchers cannot possibly understand.

That's half way true.
How about this:
When posters have asked questions about Chabad and answers are attempted each and every time, but certain posters don't seem to get it and will persist back at square one all over again, I say (like I said last time) that there is a difference in communication between the way I speak and you speak. It comes from a mentality clash because of our different outlooks and the way we learn Torah.

If you haven't gotten what I said the last fifty times, what do we expect of the fifty-first? (I didn't say "hundred" purposely, for those who will tell me you're supposed to learn something a hundred times. Wink

) That's why the thread disappears. There's no point in a thread that only causes rift with no understanding between the two sides.

My advice for those who are honestly looking for answers: Ask your questions to the people who have come from Lakewood or Bnei Brak or from wherever TO Lubavitch. Perhaps they have the communication skills to speak to both mentalities. (I know one man who is very well-versed in these things and tries to act as an interpreter, by publishing sichos in a way that the Litvish are used to learning.)

Take this one single sentence that I wrote clearly at least three times: "Moshe didn't do the miracles, Hashem did." I explained on a level that anyone can understand why it is not an accurate statement and why I take issue with it.

Here's how you see what the sentence means (thanks Mimisinger, you enlightened me!): Of course Moshe was there, we all know that. Hashem performed the miracles.
This is how you think I see it: Moshe did the miracles, not Hashem.

This is how I see it: Of course Hashem did the miracles, Moshe was his agent.

But look how, after all this, at the very end of your post you still write:

Quote:

I had absolutely no idea that someone Lub would have a problem with a tape that said Hashem performed the miracles in Egypt - until you told me so.

You are either purposely or not misconstruing what I wrote. When someone is stuck on a point for no reason at all and does not understand anything else no matter how many times it's been proven otherwise, it signifies brainwashing.

The brainwashing to me is when people who don't know what they are talking about stand up and state their position and they are believed without further question because of their status. And when it happens again and again and again, and the ignorance and falsehoods are glaring to those of us on the other side of the line, but nevertheless these words are accepted because of a)status and b) the people don't know any better themselves, or those that do are quiet.