Mishpacha Serial Light Years Away

amother

Raspberry

Tue, May 10 2022, 12:32 am

ecs wrote:

Can we talk about Shua a bit more? I always think if he were my daughters husband I'd be tempted to take a hit out on him. Is there really a functional society that admires such an oblivious husband?

I hear you but I can relate. I have an uncle who's a tremendous Talmud chochom and truly one of the nicest most caring people I know. But he's so deep in his Torah learning all the time that he's very oblivious. It's not because he doesn't care about people, he really truly does. And when he's here on this planet he'll do anything for anyone. But he's usually in a different realm.

amother

Purple

Tue, May 10 2022, 12:47 am

ecs wrote:

Can we talk about Shua a bit more? I always think if he were my daughters husband I'd be tempted to take a hit out on him. Is there really a functional society that admires such an oblivious husband?

OK. Here is my take on it.

Yes, in the Torah world, people like Shua are very much admired.
I remembering hearing about one of the gedolim in a previous generation who sat down at the table and found a rag in a plate.. he started to eat it, thinking it was his supper. The point was to show he was so involved in his learning that he was completely removed from olam Hazeh.

Stories abound of the gadol hador, rav Chaim Kanievsky, ztl. It is said about him that he was called up to the army and when he arrived they asked him where he lived and he said he didn't know! They asked him what he does, he said he learned in kollel chazon ish. They asked, where is that? He said I don't know. They exempted him for not being all there. He apparently used to ask what the bracha was for each food he ate each time. He was completely divorced from any information he didn't need to know. I think any of us would be frustrated if our daughter was married to someone like that. But he was the gadol hador! And he was not oblivious to his wife- he held her in the highest esteem.

But the point is that the absent-minded illui is very much tolerated and even admired. It shows the person is completely submerged in his learning.

Now, the way I view Shua, aside from being somewhat absent minded, is that he was raised in a home where they conditioned the men to only put learning first. He believed that his wife was on board because Nechami never disabled him of the notion. I don't think you can blame a guy for going along with a lifestyle he believed his wife wanted as well! And I nechami would have asked him to come home, he would have done so in a second. He happens to be a true baal middos.

The insight I had in this story is the following: Bais Yaakov girls are taught over and over (explicitly or subliminally) that being a good wife means compromising and respecting our husband's wishes. But the MEN ARE NOT taught the same! They aren't taught that marriage means that they will have the only say in the house, and their wives will always agree. so they come into the marriage expecting the wife to have opinions, but they find that their wife always agrees with them! They dont have the experience at first to realize that the wife is just going along with them. But honestly, if the woman would speak up, the men would be happy to make it a partnership, as opposed to being a lord dictator. That's my take anyway.

Both Shua and Moishy would be okay with their wives speaking up and voicing their true feelings. They can't be faulted for not reading their wives' mind.

amother

Firebrick

Tue, May 10 2022, 12:50 am

amother [ Purple ] wrote:

Now, the way I view Shua, aside from being somewhat absent minded, is that he was raised in a home where they conditioned the men to only put learning first. He believed that his wife was on board because Nechami never disabled him of the notion. I don't think you can blame a guy for going along with a lifestyle he believed his wife wanted as well! And I nechami would have asked him to come home, he would have done so in a second. He happens to be a true baal middos.

This is not about being mind readers or what they grew up with.
If someone has a drop of middos they open their eyes and see how their wife's load is breaking!
It is completely ludicrous to me that this is encouraged.
You can be completely absorbed in Torah and still have middos.
If someone cannot do that they are not marriage material.

amother

Purple

Tue, May 10 2022, 12:58 am

amother [ Firebrick ] wrote:

A person like that shouldn't get married.
Marriage is for a person who can be a partner.

With all due respect, if you read some of the stories of Rav Chaim Kanievsky, you would say he isn't marriage material. He "allowed" his wife to do so much. And yet he was a loving Husband and father. He was also a devoted son, son in law and nephew to his uncle, the Chazon Ish.

His wife did a lot, but it was her choice.
It to compare Shua to the gadol hador, but he assumed his wife was OK because she never let him know otherwise.

I have a friend whose mother would not call her father (a Rosh yeshiva) when her son had to be hospitalized, do as not to disturb his learning. She managed it on her own. This is what she saw by her parents. Her husband also does not drove, so she drives him to and from yeshiva every day.

In some families this is considered normal.

Now. We can discuss degrees. At what point is it considered normal to call tour husband home from learning? It would be different for different people.

For some people "I'm having a hard night, someone needs to study with Rachelli for her Navi test..." would be enough of a reason to insist that the husband stay home from his evening learning.

For others, even if they have a minor emergency, they would hold back from disturbing their husband from learning.

There is a huge spectrum.

amother

Firebrick

Tue, May 10 2022, 1:02 am

amother [ Purple ] wrote:

A man that is mature would know when to close his sefer.
He wouldn't need his wife to tell him.

If he is part of the household he should be noticing things on his own.

I don't know about Rav kanievsky's sholom bayis and I wasn't referring to him.
I am referring to the average shmoe, who should not be that self centered and oblivious.
Raising a son to be oblivious is raising your son to have bad middos.

TravelHearter

Tue, May 10 2022, 1:03 am

The question is what happened with Nechami and Shua between the ‘before’ and ‘after’? She keeps on referring to those hard days, and the way Shua was, and how it’s different now, but the author doesn’t elaborate on how the change was made. It’s not only that the kids got older. Shua is a lot more intuitive then he used to be, and she’s more expressive. What changed? What happened?

Also Dudi’s mother drives me nuts. It’s so clear how how she talks to and reacts to Dudi makes such a difference in his life. Why does she have to say every word that she’s feeling to him?

amother

Purple

Tue, May 10 2022, 1:11 am

amother [ Firebrick ] wrote:

Shuas mom is of the belief that boys should not do menial jobs. Girls should be trained to serve their talmid chacham husbands and revere them. Nechami is irked by that sort of upbringing, and believed that it produces self-centered, oblivious men.

Honestly, while I think Shuas mom is extreme, this attitude is pretty pervasive in the right-wing chareidi world.

I live in a mixed OOT community. I often have guests for Shabbos. Typically the female half will get up to serve, clear up, and the male guests will just sit. Men are usually less domesticated. Is it only upbringing or is it also the nature of men?

(And yes I know , there are tons of exceptions. )

amother

Pumpkin

Tue, May 10 2022, 1:14 am

Omg I loveeee this serial. The author is brilliant, and I wish they would give credit to whoever does the translation because it’s beyond amazing. She doesn’t miss any of the nuances that usually get lost in translation.

I think the character development is phenomenal and that’s what makes her stories so special. These are characters that I would usually judge, but once you get to see them as people with layers and feelings, the judgment, for the most part, falls away. I’ve come to like, or at least respect, all the characters.

Gosh, she’s brilliant.

amother

Ebony

Tue, May 10 2022, 1:22 am

amother [ Purple ] wrote:

I live in a mixed OOT community. I often have guests for shabbos. Typically the female half will get up to serve, clear up, and the male guests will just sit. Men are eventually less domesticated. Is it only upbringing or is it also the nature of men?

(And yes I know , there are tons of exceptions. )

Sorry to go off topic, but I often hate it when the men come into the kitchen to help. Some men will stand up at end of the meal, help clean and then go right back to the table. That's fine. But I can't stand it when guys come into the kitchen between courses, help, and hang out. Call me sexist, but I think it's socially off. Sweet. But off. The women are allowed to hang out for a few minutes in the kitchen without men.

ecs

Tue, May 10 2022, 1:29 am

[quote="amother [ Purple ]"]OK. Here is my take on it.

Yes, in the Torah world, people like Shua are very much admired.
I remembering hearing about one of the gedolim in a previous generation who sat down at the table and found a rag in a plate.. he started to eat it, thinking it was his supper. The point was to show he was so involved in his learning that he was completely removed from olam Hazeh.

Stories abound of the gadol hador, rav Chaim Kanievsky, ztl. It is said about him that he was called up to the army and when he arrived they asked him where he lived and he said he didn't know! They asked him what he does, he said he learned in kollel chazon ish. They asked, where is that? He said I don't know. They exempted him for not being all there. He apparently used to ask what the bracha was for each food he ate each time. He was completely divorced from any information he didn't need to know. I think any of us would be frustrated if our daughter was married to someone like that. But he was the gadol hador! And he was not oblivious to his wife- he held her in the highest esteem.

But the point is that the absent-minded illui is very much tolerated and even admired. It shows the person is completely submerged in his learning.

Now, the way I view Shua, aside from being somewhat absent minded, is that he was raised in a home where they conditioned the men to only put learning first. He believed that his wife was on board because Nechami never disabled him of the notion. I don't think you can blame a guy for going along with a lifestyle he believed his wife wanted as well! And I nechami would have asked him to come home, he would have done so in a second. He happens to be a true baal middos.

The insight I had in this story is the following: Bais Yaakov girls are taught over and over (explicitly or subliminally) that being a good wife means compromising and respecting our husband's wishes. But the MEN ARE NOT taught the same! They aren't taught that marriage means that they will have the only say in the house, and their wives will always agree. so they come into the marriage expecting the wife to have opinions, but they find that their wife always agrees with them! They dont have the experience at first to realize that the wife is just going along with them. But honestly, if the woman would speak up, the men would be happy to make it a partnership, as opposed to being a lord dictator. That's my take anyway.

Both Shua and Moishy would be okay with their wives speaking up and voicing their true feelings. They can't be faulted for not reading their wives' mind.[/quo

The whole dynamic just comes across as so dysfunctional. "Buying " a top boy for your daughter, everyone working themselves to the bone serving the young man. I guess it's exaggerated to make it more sensational, but the vibes are disturbing. Do you really think if Nechami would ask her husband for a normal amount of help and involvement in the house he would happily agree? A man raised to believe it's an honor for womenfolk to serve him?

amother

Trillium

Tue, May 10 2022, 2:43 am

it's so interestsing to see others' perspectives. I think Nechami is the only one to blame for the difficulties of the early years. (As an aside, does anybody in real life really think as extremely as she does? Even after she faints on the floor, and is awakened by her little boy holding a little hammer over her head, she still shleps in a taxi with 3 babies to her mother in the middle of the night?! She honesly believes that she is only allowed to ask her husband to come home if she's on her deathbed?!)
If he's leaving the house to learn, and says, "Bye, I'll see you tomorrow, I'll be home after 1 AM", and she smiles and says, "Sure! it is my greatest zchus to know you are learning 22 hours a day!", then that is what he hears and accepts. From what we see of his kindness and caring at this point, he simply needed to be told and he would have happily and instantly been home more.

amother

Molasses

Tue, May 10 2022, 3:10 am

amother [ Purple ] wrote:

Shuas mom is of the belief that boys should not do menial jobs. Girls should be trained to serve their talmid chacham husband's and revere them. Nechami is irked by that sort of upbringing, and believed that it produces self sintered, oblivious men.

Honestly, while I think Shuas mom is extreme, this attitude is pretty pervasive in the right wing chareidi world.

I live in a mixed OOT community. I often have guests for shabbos. Typically the female half will get up to serve, clear up, and the male guests will just sit. Men are eventually less domesticated. Is it only upbringing or is it also the nature of men?

(And yes I know , there are tons of exceptions. )

DH helps at home with us, by his parents, and my parents. When we have guests though he's the hea dof the table. It would feel off to have him go off.

In addition our Israeli kitchen doesn't fit more than 3 people in it without bumping into each other. It's quite awkward having men and women in the kitchen together and avoid bumping into each other.