I want to keep hosting for simchas, but…

imaima

Tue, Jun 07 2022, 5:09 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

We have two beautiful bedrooms and a bathroom (with a separate entrance) and have bH been privileged to host guests, sometimes large families (one of our bedrooms can fit five kids) over the years for simchas in the neighborhood. For the most part, it has been a positive experience and our guests have been wonderful, although we’ve had our share of crazy stories as well (think guests seriously damaging the carpet and leaving without saying a word, having shouting matches 6:00 AM, etc…)

It has come to the point where we are having several large issues and I wanted opinions on how to say this/work it out, because we want to continue doing the mitzvah but have to be able to make it work.

Firstly, we’ve been having issues with guests’ little children waking our family hours earlier than we would’ve gotten up. I am lucky that my kids usually sleep late - till at least 10:00 - on shabbos, so when a young family gets up at 6:30 and wakes my kids along with theirs it’s extremely upsetting. Shabbos is my one day to sleep; I work full time and don’t sleep enough all week, and I rely on shabbos to catch up. Our guest bedrooms/bathroom are extremely private and you’d have to scream really loud to be heard all the way upstairs where our bedrooms are, but the playroom next to them - which inevitably the kids gravitate to once their awake, has an open staircase that travels all the way to the second floor and we hear everything from that room. Guests who have several (or even one) little kids and don’t keep them quiet in the playroom will inevitably wake my family. But how can I tell them they need to be quiet?

Also, whether or not they ask permission, the guests almost always end up playing with the toys in our playroom. My children have gotten increasingly resentful over the years. It’s gotten to the point where we created a separate closet of the toys they don’t want others to touch, like their special Lego or playmobil, and put a visible lock on the door, but believe it or not, some guests disregard that and will help themselves to any toy….I want my children to give of themselves and happily do the mitzvah of hachnosas orchim…but they have gotten so upset as of late…when my kids hear there will be guests they literally kick and scream..is that bad middos on their part or normal behavior…we’ve tried everything but short of moving all the toys up to their bedroom, which we don’t have room or time for, we don’t know what else to do…

Lastly, although I always make a disclaimer when saying guests could come and tell the ‘Baal Simcha’ to explain that my children will need to use the playroom over shabbos, some guests do sort of park themselves there for a large part of shabbos. If they don’t sit in their bedrooms, where else should they go? Think people who are here for shabbos sheva berachos but are from the chassan side and so have no reason to go to the Baal Simcha house to ‘hang out’…they can be by us till 1:00 pm till they eat the seudah and then immediately afterwards all afternoon…I always feel so bad for those guests who have no where to go and nothing to do…but then my kids don’t have their playroom, and if it’s bad weather and they’re stuck inside they can be very resentful.

Looking for imas who’ve had similar experiences..what did you do? I can’t create a whole set of ‘rules’ for guests / when we were guests at such a house for a Simcha, it made us feel so unwelcome…

Why can’t your kids play with the guests‘ kids?! It is the obvious question

amother

Pear

Tue, Jun 07 2022, 5:25 am

Sesame wrote:

One thing my rav always says is if it infringes on your children, do chessed to your children first
Them invading your children privacy and touching their private things without permission is shocking and not okay. Not remotely!
Either be honest - the playroom isn’t available (but I would leave them toys!) or take a break for now until you can figure out how this can work for your children. Do they have to know you have a playroom? The noise and invasion of privacy just doesn’t work. It’s not okay to go somewhere and wake up a family! I don’t go anywhere because of this, unless we can get our own place.

This. There was a different thread recently where someone was upset she couldn’t host cuz her kids are difficult.

My parents used to host a lot and have a big house bh. It started bothering my brother for several (legitimate) reasons and their rav explained to them the same as above. While you’re kids are young you are their protector and you shouldn’t be doing mitzvah on their cheshbon.

Maybe a balance can be doing it more infrequently, making some sort of chart explaining it to the kids. Or, taking only adult/ couple guests for the time being and explaining that that’s your kids playroom and you don’t have a lounging area.

WhatFor

Tue, Jun 07 2022, 5:28 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

My kids are resentful and upset if their special toys are touched. And they have to wait till the guests are out of the house to take out their special toys (they might grumble but they’re okay with that).
They also don’t feel comfortable being in the playroom when guests are there (and I doubt the guests would feel comfortable either) unless they ‘make friends’ with them, which does happen sometimes. But sometimes the guests kids take over, and we’ve even had them show up with their own friends or family to hang out, and yeah, then my kids are basically ousted from their playroom…
It’s not the end of the world. But how can I stop them from resenting it?

I think at this point, it's safe to rely on the past to predict what's likely to happen in the future. It's great to teach your kids about inviting guests and sharing but it's also important that your kids feel there are boundaries in place in their own home and that their most valuable items are protected. And if you continue this way there will continue to be people who disrespect your rules and violate your kids' boundaries.

I know it's easy for us to think of this as "it's just toys" and "they should share", but how many of us would be okay with strangers once a week rummaging through our kitchens and using our most valued kitchen appliances however they wished? Or going into our bedrooms and borrowing whatever clothing/jewelry/hair covering/shoes they wanted just for the day? (Sorry to use obviously zexist examples, just trying to give examples of things most of us can relate to. I'm sure we also all have other things that would be our "toys" related to hobbies, musical instruments, snowboards/skis, yoga mats, exercise equipment, etc. we wouldn't want random strangers handling every week.)

OP, I would avoid giving specifics about why you can't do it for certain groups, other than to say it doesn't work for our family right now. And I think it makes more sense to limit to age groups than to people who won't go into certain rooms. The hosts can't guarantee what their guests' kids are going to do even if they think they can,and in middle of hosting a simcha they're likely to forget to tell your guests the specifics anyway.

And no, it's not rude to create and enforce boundaries for your kids. Just make it assertive as opposed to putting it on the guests. Answer the whys with repeating any variation of: "I'm sorry, we can't host the family with young kids right now."
"It just won't work for us at this time."
"If you have a different adult couple or family with older kids, we'd be happy to host them if that helps you."
"No, I wish I could help, but this is a family decision based on what works for our family right now. We can't have families with younger kids at this time."
The more info you give, the more people are going to try to push your kids' boundaries.

amother

Aster

Tue, Jun 07 2022, 5:40 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Quote:

Maybe you can't? And maybe that's ok? Maybe part of raising confident and safe children is teaching them that we value their personal space and boundaries. To you it might seem like its only toys, but would you really be ok hosting adults that touch the makeup you were saving for YT in the bathroom?
Children who know that their boundaries will be protected and respected have a better chance of actually growing up to be generous and caring adults.
The opposite will actually cause children to be more possessive and selfish

You mentioned that it sometimes happens that the guests bring family and friends into the playroom. Which means that from your children's POV you are not only hosting quests in your two beautiful rooms but you are also giving up their playroom. Would you really be ok with the guests coming into your kitchen and dining room to chill? Or would that clearly be to much for you? For your kids its pretty much the same.

amother

Springgreen

Tue, Jun 07 2022, 5:58 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

How do you tell the Baal Simcha that you can only host if the people will mostly be by her? Doesn’t that come across rude?

No. Say it straight out to the baal simcha. Your home is only available for sleeping, not during the rest of the day. If they can do that, great, if they cannot they will need to find somewhere else for their guests to sleep.

It's not a chesed if you end up resentful.

You can also ask to only host families with children over bar/ bat mitzvah. Say younger children are not working for your family right now, you're happy to help with couples, singles, or families with teens only.

This way you don't have to face the guests directly. Just the baal simcha who will decide if this is matim for them or not.

lamplighter

Tue, Jun 07 2022, 6:12 am

I would also suggest having guests way less often. You said "almost every week". That's a lot for the situation you're describing. I believe that if you had these sleepover simcha guests once every month at most, it would all feel less like a big deal and more like a once in a while chessed.
I have a relative who had an option to buy a larger home or a smaller one and chose the option of fewer bedrooms. He once told me that he knows the struggles with hosting and if he had the rooms it would be constant dealing with chessed and then guilt for saying no etc. I first thought how selfish but as I lived life more I understood his point.
When we have guests I assume they will occupy all the "living areas" of the house. It's a lot sometimes but that's how it is. I don't think you can ask people to just stay in their bedrooms.

Last edited by lamplighter on Tue, Jun 07 2022, 8:47 am; edited 1 time in total

imaima

Tue, Jun 07 2022, 6:16 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Seriously? If you were a kid would YOU like to play with new kids in your own home nearly every week?
( aside from the fact that the genders or ages often don’t align).

If it rains outside and there is no way to go, why can’t they all play together? It is a menschlich thing to do.

My kids definitely play with all sorts of kids in our house if we host new people. And they share toys. 90% of times all is fine, davka because my kids are also there to watch the guests.

I have several solutions: not to host people with little kids;
Then, it’s not Torah mi Sinai that toys are only to be enjoyed in playrooms. Other people will testify that they keep toys in their kids bedrooms.
So you can: a) put some toys into one of guest bedrooms and tell them to play with those till 10 am.
b) tell your kids to keep their special toys in their bedrooms.
c) do both and keep only random toys on display in the playroom that you don’t cherish so much.

I have many questions though: where are your guests supposed to hang out? Do they never show up anywhere other than those bedrooms? Do they have any water there? What if they need something from you?

I feel like you are not ready to do this mitzvah, at least not as frequently as you do it. You have space but you are not ready to forego your comfort and neither are your kids.

imaima

Tue, Jun 07 2022, 6:23 am

lamplighter wrote:

I would also suggest having guests way less often. You said "almost every week". That's a lot for the situation you're describing. I believe that if you had these sleepover simcha guests once every month at most, it would all feel less like a big deal and more like a once in a while chessed.
I have a relative who had an option to buy a larger home or a smaller one and chose the option of fewer bedrooms. He once told me that he knows that the struggle with hosting and if he had the rooms it would be constant dealing with chessed and then guilt for saying no etc. I first thought how selfish but as I lived life more I understood his point.
When we have guests I assume they will occupy all the "living areas" of the house. It's a lot sometimes but that's how it is. I don't think you can ask people to just stay in their bedrooms.

It is my expectation too.
If you host every week really random people who you would not let into your living room to hang out, then it is too much for all of your family!

I would convert one of your bedrooms into a living room by putting toys, an electric kettle and maybe a small fridge in there. Then it’s like a hotel room and people can live there absolutely autonomously without needing anything from you. But then you can host fewer people and probably without kids.
Such is life.

amother

Ecru

Tue, Jun 07 2022, 6:54 am

I agree with most other posters.
Once you have guests, and the kids wake up early, you can't really prevent noise. You can ask the parents to try to keep it quiet until, say 8-9, but recognize often there's not much the parents can do barring gagging them.
When we have guests downstairs, we don't use the whole basement even though the bedroom has its own door. Our playroom is also down there but we give them the privacy of the whole basement.
My kids would only go downstairs to play once I know that everyone is up and dressed and already out or upstairs, and with their permission. They are not allowed down during guests' naptime.
I see no problem with really locking down some toys that are not allowed for guests to play. But keep them hidden so the guests do not know what they are missing.
Once, in a reversal, we were guests for a simcha and we were placed downstairs with our children in a bedroom with a door. About 6 AM, the hosts' children came down to play. They also came into our bedroom which had no lock. Apparently, they were never told not to and it was pretty awful. I was shocked that the parents did not call their kids back up.
Anyway, it seems that, at this time, having guests so often is not what is best for your children.

amother

Aster

Tue, Jun 07 2022, 7:02 am

amother [ Babypink ] wrote:

From what I've understood so far, you just need to be more explicit.
"Please do not play in the playroom before 9:30 am. Here's a basket of toys you can play with in your room"
"This cabinet of toys is off limits, I've put a child lock on it but please keep an eye to make sure your children don't touch it"

Being explicit has to start with the Baalei simcha.
You have to be clear with the Baalei simcha that you only have two rooms to give NOT a basement.
The baalei simcha might be under the impression that you have a finished basement to give to guests and that is why you are getting the noiser and larger families that they are bringing in. But its not true, and you have to be the ones to tell them that.

amother

Green

Tue, Jun 07 2022, 7:14 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Seriously? If you were a kid would YOU like to play with new kids in your own home nearly every week?
( aside from the fact that the genders or ages often don’t align).

Yes, seriously. We host frequently, but not nearly every week. Our guest rooms are on a separate floor, but still part of the house, not separated like yours. The playroom is downstairs, on the first floor. My kids don’t mind playing with guest kids, they love playing with new people.
It seems your kids are not the only ones getting a little resentful. Perhaps it’s time to take a step back and say “we can’t host family with young kids at this time.”
Are you really hosting every week? If so, maybe it’s time to cut back on that too, like once or twice a month instead of every week.